<p>With all due respect to the OP, do you think this decision should wait until her daughter is admitted to UF?</p>
<p>UMich prioritizes GPA with very little regard to SAT/ ACT</p>
<p>UF looks at OOS with different priorities (class rank, Sat/act)…</p>
<p>The OP posted on another thread that her daughter earned a 29 on the ACT…if this is the score submitted to UF, the question posed in this thread is probably moot…</p>
<p>If that is not true, carry on</p>
<p>“She has valid reasons for not wanting to go there”</p>
<p>Is it because Penn State is too close to home, or because too many of her HS classmates will be going there? If Michigan is a dream school, then I imagine she isn’t put off by the size or athletic focus of PSU. What about Pitt?</p>
<p>*her daughter earned a 29 on the ACT…if this is the score submitted to UF, the question posed in this thread is probably moot…</p>
<p>*</p>
<p>If her D’s highest ACT is a 29, she won’t likely get anything from UF. That isn’t high for UF.</p>
<p>UF middle quartiles</p>
<p>ACT Composite: 26 - 30 </p>
<p>A 29 isn’t in the top 25% of the school. No merit is likely. </p>
<p>So, if that’s the sent score, then the comparison needs to be $40k at UF or 50k at UMich. I don’t think either school is worth it for that major and career goal.</p>
<p>* if she does not get into Florida with $$$ (she may not even get in at all???) *</p>
<p>True…she may not get into UF. It’s hard to get into from OOS. Don’t know if UF requires high stats for OOS admission.</p>
<p>*Money is an issue, we have to take out loans to send our kids to college. She is our youngest and as my husband said we will be paying this off for the rest of our lives and if she wants a wedding it will have to be at McDonalds.
*</p>
<p>UF and UMich are not worth that. At all.</p>
<p>*Our flag ship would be Penn State University, College Park, which was a safety school for her. She got in but sadly has no interest in going. Penn State has an amazing reputation and is a fine school. She has valid reasons for not wanting to go there and I think she earned the right to have some say in where she goes. *</p>
<p>While I agree that kids should have some say, I also know that kids often have unsubstantiated reasons for not wanting school A…or only wanting school B. Kids can get wild-haired ideas that don’t hold up to any real scrutiny. If money were no object, then that would be one thing.</p>
<p>UF will cost you $160k at least. That is not worth it unless you can easily write that check and not think twice. UMich would be over $200k. That’s just nuts if loans are needed and it will affect other aspects of your lives. </p>
<p>If her reason for not wanting PSU is because many of her classmates will be going there, then that’s not a substantial reason. PSU is large enough that a person need not often see old high school classmates. I don’t know if that’s her reason, but that is often a given reason for not wanting one’s flagship school. </p>
<p>Why not quickly find some other schools to apply to that will either be cheaper or would give her merit???</p>
<p>“I don’t know if that’s her reason, but that is often a given reason for not wanting one’s flagship school.”</p>
<p>That’s the sticking point with me – the substantial overlap between the flagship and the target schools here. If the child has her heart set on a Bard/Sarah Lawrence type of experience, it may be just plain unavailable at the flagship, period. That’s the kind of situation where I could see spending a lot more to give the child something completely different from the in-state options. But PSU vs. a similar large, selective, nationally recognized, sports-oriented, college-town flagship? I would not borrow much to pay for that difference.</p>
<p>^^^</p>
<p>Exactly!</p>
<p>One big flagship is going to be very similar to another big flagship. It’s not like the choice is between PSU and Reed or Smith.</p>
<p>That’s why I thought that the “issue” might be not wanting to go to school with high school classmates (like that Arizona girl who wants to pay OOS for Clemson or Auburn and parents won’t pay. Her issue is that all the slackers from HS will be at Arizona. )</p>
<p>I did notice that the mom referred to PSU as a “safety” and that may be part of the issue. If the D had an ACT 29, then PSU wasn’t a safety, it was a match.</p>
<p>If the D thinks she “worked too hard” to go to a safety, then that wouldn’t hold water.</p>
<p>PSU middle quartiles</p>
<p>SAT Critical Reading: 530 - 630
SAT Math: …560 - 670
SAT Writing:… 530 - 640
ACT: … 25 - 30 </p>
<p>An ACT 29 is within the middle quartiles…so it was more of a match.</p>
<p>Either the HS classmates thing, or else maybe the student lives in the State College region and wants to go away…in which case Pitt ought to be an excellent option. The OP is fortunate to live in a two-flagship state. (We’re jealous of that over here in Illinois.)</p>
<p>OP, Penn State is my S in-state school as well and like your D, he has shown little interest in that school because it was too close. UM and UF were in our early list as well but my S did not apply because I knew early on that even if he got accepted, we’re not going to see much of an aid and we’re not willing to pay that much for an undergrad degree. I encourage him to apply OOS and his top choice school, but he knows that it all comes down to money and I made sure that he applied to schools where he has a very good shot at getting a merit scholarship. PSU is a wonderful school and I would have been happy if he went there. </p>
<p>Does your D plan to go to grad school afterwards? UM could be an option for her then.</p>
<p>PSU was a safety school for her, she has a GPA of a 4.7 W and 3.8 UW. Many of her friends got in there with much less and also much lower ACT scores (hers is a 29).
She has friends who got into PSU this year with a 23 on ACT. And yes her reasons for not wanting to go there are mainly because she knows a ton of kids that go there, who will be going there (good friends from home and camp) and she wants a totally different set of experiences. She also wants to go to Michigan because she loves the fact that everyone there is smart and earned equal or in most cases higher grades/scores then her.</p>
<p>So basically what I am gathering is that in the opinion of this blog, there is no state school, Michigan or not, that is worth the OOS costs over your own Flagship. </p>
<p>BTW, she did tour Pitt/spent the weekend and did not like it. She liked Penn State better, so if given only those 2 choices she would have picked Penn State.</p>
<p>I am caught between a rock and a hard place because my other 2 kids went OOS (my son didn’t get into PSU) and my other daughter who is currently in college didn’t apply there (it wasn’t the right fit for her). </p>
<p>This current daughter did get into Indiana Bloomington- direct admit to Kelley School of Businesss with $ so that was an option until the Michigan letter came…</p>
<p>“So basically what I am gathering is that in the opinion of this blog, there is no state school, Michigan or not, that is worth the OOS costs over your own Flagship.”</p>
<p>Well, there are details of your story that wouldn’t apply to every family:</p>
<ol>
<li>You say you’d have to borrow to cover the tuition and be in debt for the rest of your lives.</li>
<li>There isn’t any one-of-a-kind academic reason to prefer the OOS flagship (e.g., they’re the only school that offers a petroleum engineering degree).</li>
<li>Your state flagship is solid to great in almost every field; I’d give the instate choice different weight if it were U of Wyoming instead of Penn State.</li>
</ol>
<p>But given these facts, yes, I think you have the board consensus right.</p>
<p>If you paid for OOS tuition for the other two kids, that does gum up the problem in my view. Maybe you’ve had a financial setback since the first one went to college (haven’t we all…). Any parent would want to give the younger child the same opportunities the older ones had, where possible.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Michigan’s 2010 Common Data Set lists the following middle 50% test score ranges:</p>
<p>SAT R CR 590-690
SAT R M 640-750
SAT R W 610-710
ACT composite 27-31</p>
<p>Average high school GPA = 3.76</p>
<p>Looks like her ACT score of 29 and high school GPA of 3.8 are right in the middle of Michigan’s students, while they are in the upper middle of Penn State’s students. That does not seem like a huge difference – and both schools are large enough that they should have courses and majors of varying levels of rigor to accommodate students at the ends of their spectrums as well as the middle.</p>
<p>In other words, not a huge difference between Michigan and Penn State here.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>If I understand correctly, it looks like you may have overpromised college money and will be unable to deliver without putting yourself in the poor house. This looks like a recipe for family arguments, compounded by potential resentment of the youngest daughter feeling that she got the short end of the college money after seeing her older siblings go to presumably more expensive out of state schools.</p>
<p>How does she like IU, and how does its net cost after scholarship compared to PSU?</p>
<p>I can see how an OOS school would be worth it over Penn State! It was my state school as well (back in the day) and I had no interest. I went to IU Kelley (well, I started as a music major and IU was about the best, but we won’t talk about that…).</p>
<p>Penn State is expensive in-state, anyway. I wish she had looked at some of the other SEC schools- possible merit money available at Miss or 'Bama.</p>
<p>Re: Kelley…that is a much better option and fulfills the OP’s D requirements…</p>
<p>Direct entry to Kelly has a stats requirement of a minimum of 29 and and UW GPA of 3.7 or top 10%…so the kids there will be equal to or “smarter” than she is…</p>
<p>If she actually wants business ( as what it appears), she has little chance of a pre-admit to Ross at UMich and I’m still doubtful about the UF admit at all with a 29 ACT but hopefully, I will be proven wrong…</p>
<p>Seems like IU is the best option…and lots of kids have made that choice over UMIch with the Kelley direct admit…</p>
<p>The Alabama Presidential Scholarship deadline has already passed (December 1).</p>
<p>The UAB Blazer Elite Scholarship does not list a formal deadline, but is given first come first served and it is already rather late in the cycle.</p>
<p>But if the student does not want to go to a school filled with students “much less smart” than she is (the apparent complaint about PSU), then any of the guaranteed big merit scholarship schools are likely to be such schools – big merit gets offered to the very top students at the school.</p>
<p>Some other out of state schools have relatively low out of state costs like Minnesota and Virginia Tech, but may also be past deadlines.</p>
<p>Indiana and Kelley is a really nice option and I believe less costly than Michigan for out of state kids. I would hazard a guess to say all the Big 10 schools have top notch kids in them.</p>
<p>Kelley sounds like a great option.</p>
<p>how much merit did IU offer her? </p>
<p>*She also wants to go to Michigan because she loves the fact that everyone there is smart and earned equal or in most cases higher grades/scores then her.
*</p>
<p>Everyone is smart? oh my! and earned equal or higher grades than her?? Nope. </p>
<p>27% had h.s. GPA between 3.5 and 3.74
6% had h.s. GPA between 3.25 and 3.49
3% had h.s. GPA between 3.0 and 3.24
1% had h.s. GPA between 2.5 and 2.99</p>
<p>About 40% will have a GPA less than hers. And, a whole bunch of kids will have ACTs lower than hers. Her’s is in the middle of mid 50s. 25% will have ACTs of 26 and below.</p>
<p>UMich is a state school. and, like most state schools its mission is to educate its residents’ kids…which often means some rather average kids…which is why state schools often weight GPA higher than test scores…to let some low test score kids in.</p>
<p>Your D “loves a fact” that doesn’t exist.</p>
<p>IU - Kelley sounds like a good compromise - especially if merit brings it down to about instate PSU. </p>
<p>If you feel like you’re not letting her have the same choices as your older kids, then apply to some other schools that have good B-schools and give large merit for her stats…like maybe ASU or UArizona. Maybe Chapman U.</p>
<p>My son actually graduated from IU, and many of his friends graduated from Kelley, and some chose Kelley over UM because of the direct admit. It is a fine school and I agree a good compromise for my daughter and I know she would be happy there. Everything will come into play once we have all decisions, so Feb. will be a big month of discussions and decisions in our house. Thanks for the info.</p>
<p>mfj:</p>
<p>I do not agree that every state flagship is equal. In general, that is probably pretty true for the most part. For example, I would say that Penn State, Rutgers, U Mass, and Maryland are probably pretty equal. But there are some state flagships, such as Virginia, Michigan and Berkeley, that probably are considered a step up in terms of prestige and academic quality over a Penn State or a Rutgers.</p>
<p>^^^</p>
<p>I don’t think anyone was saying that all flagships are equal. Obviously, no one thinks UNevada is on par with UVA. However, once you’re comparing the large sporty strong flagships, you’re going to get a similar experience and culture. </p>
<p>I think the point was that if PSU is your flagship, then it’s hard to say that UF or UMich is so much better therefore the extra cost is justified. As mentioned earlier, if she were wanting to go to a different type of school…say a small LAC or women-only school…then it could be argued that PSU is far from that kind of school. </p>
<p>The student’s issues aren’t holding up to daylight. The kids at UMich aren’t all as smart or smarter than she is. If she were to go to PSU, she’d have many smart classmates, and it’s big enough that she wouldn’t be stumbling over old high school classmates…certainly not the more average ones if she’d be in Smeal.</p>
<p>People can’t just look at a school’s middle range to determine who their classmates will be. Those in the more challenging majors are going to find that their classmates are the ones who fall into the upper quarter or upper third of the school.</p>
<p>Looks like IU - Kelley is a good alternative.</p>
<p>
[/quote]
that probably are considered a step up in terms of prestige and academic quality over a Penn State or a Rutgers.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>In generalities perhaps a bit of a hair split and perhaps not in every major.</p>
<p>“Those in the more challenging majors are going to find that their classmates are the ones who fall into the upper quarter or upper third of the school.”</p>
<p>No kidding. Dummies and slackers don’t sign up for Chemical Engineering. Even for electives, you can find courses that will scare them away.</p>