If it’s good art, then let the free market decide. I don’t expect taxpayers to support my hobbies for a living, either.
Again, cultural appropriation is not just about disrespecting parts of a culture that people within that culture find meaningful. And yes, some people might consider non-Japanese people eating sushi or non-Thai people eating Thai food as a form of cultural appropriation. Because they feel as when Thai people eat Thai food, that they are looked down upon for not assimilating into American culture. While if non-Thai people eat Thai food, they are praised for being cosmopolitan. You don’t have to agree, and I doubt anything will happen if you go eat Thai food, or partake in any Thai cultural activities. But that is how some people feel. I’m not sure why this is so hard to understand. Well, I have a guess, but I suspect that if I voiced it, people would get offended and not take me seriously.
@warbrain, go right ahead and call me a racist. I cook authentic French, Hungarian, Italian, Thai, Chinese, and Indian food and I am none of those things. I dabble in all kinds of cuisines. I adore sausage gravy and biscuits, chicken-fried steak and milk gravy, shrimp etouffe, and cheese grits, and I am neither Southern nor Cajun. Not one tiny little bit.
If a person is so unbelievably benighted as to consider this anything other than an appreciation of those cultures, then they are not fit to exist outside a ghetto of their own making. If some people consider them lesser for eating their ancestral foods, they are idiots. This is America. Cross-pollinate. Assimilate. It is what we do, and that is why we are a successful multicultural society that is not torn by sectarian violence.
I really, really dislike identity politics.
"Because they feel as when Thai people eat Thai food, that they are looked down upon for not assimilating into American culture. While if non-Thai people eat Thai food, they are praised for being cosmopolitan. "
Well, that’s just stupid. Who would look down on a Thai person for eating Thai? This is known as people making stuff up.
I guess this doesn’t apply to Thai people, but there is a whole stereotype born out of the idea that Indian people smell because of the type of food they eat.
@warbrain, there are always ignoramuses…
Back in the day, there was a certain sort of person who would make remarks about Italians and other people of “that sort” smelling of garlic. My late FIL, a midwesterner of English and German ancestry, would talk about how he supposedly didn’t like garlic. It was obviously a code word. Once, when he did so, at my dinner table, I pointed out to him that he had just eaten his third helping of garlic mashed potatoes.
In the process of establishing our nation of immigrants, there have been and will continue to be plenty of bumps and bruises. Some people are more flexible and open-minded than others. Only recently has clinging to every slight been viewed as a virtue.
No doubt that japanese and thai owners of japanese & thai restaurants want their food to be appropriated.
That’s not a stereotype. I thought I was going to gag and die on an 8 hour flight to Amsterdam, seated next to a group of indian men. But I think it’s more of a cultural personal hygiene issue than a food issue.
You can add French men to the personal hygiene black list. I was seated between 2 French guys in a business meeting yesterday afternoon. Whenever one of them raised his arm to make a point, I cringed…
So if I don’t wear deodorant I’m appropriating French culture.
There are racially based genetic differences in body odor.
People are more prone to smell when they eat large quantities certain foods, such as garlic or certain spices in curry. That’s not “stereotype”. It’s truth.
" And historical treatment of black people and Native Americans in the US has been such that many of their cultural practices have been lost forever. So people can be sensitive to the idea that they are losing their culture - not only are they forced to be more Americanized, but now everyone gets to take part in the activities they are not allowed to take part in"
Is that why the outrage when Miley Cyrus twerked – because she was re appropriating proud black traditions?
I don’t understand why people think that cultural appropriation is some kind of myth. If minorities are telling you they don’t like something, how about just stopping to listen instead of automatically calling it hyper-sensitivity. Even things like using aave or ebonics is cultural appropriation and very annoying. When I hear rich white kids (and other types of kids, this is just an example) using aave and thinking they’re so cool, it makes me very upset. I was picked on for using the same types of words as a kid when I was TRYING to fit in, yet now because its cool because white kids do it? This goes for many other things: hair, black bodies (hair, lips, behind, etc), clothes. It happens to various other minorities too (and minorities can appropriate, but in my experience it’s usually white kids) and is extremely annoying. My culture is not a trend or a style, it is my life. People need to respect that and learn the difference between appreciation and appropriation.
Also to whoever said Indians smell, that is in fact a pretty racist thing to say.
Also also western culture cannot be appropriated because it forced itself on pretty much the whole world. However, no people try to pick and choose “cool” things from various cultures under the guise of building a community or cultural sharing or whatever.
Why is it racist to say Indians smell? Do you really think all peoples smell the same?
Re post 139 and “artistic freedom”–much of the controversy wasn’t directly about the art itself but about the FUNDING of the art. If Maplethorpe’s art was a private show nobody could have said much (except they didn’t approve).
But since it was funded by taxpayers it was fair game and rightly debated as to how much the government should be funding art of which a good portion of the populace disapproved.
re post 151–I’m trying to understand. Nothing gets “cool” if nobody does it.
Pretty much anything thought annoying, useless, worthless is left alone. Not promoted. It doesn’t matter what the original source. If there is some worth or joy to be gotten from adopting a practice, it will be adopted–it’s a free country still. The great thing is that Americans (which includes many cultures and different people) are ABLE to carve out their own practices and lifestyles. I can’t imagine that anybody actually wants to have a stranglehold on THEIR culture without the opportunity of EXCHANGE and CHANGE
I’ve been to India several times. Many parts of the country itself smell because they don’t have a culture of throwing trash into trashcans and disposing it, but rather leaving it on the road. (In a business setting, when I asked what to do with a banana peel, I was told to throw it out the window onto the pile of garbage that was already there. I put it in my briefcase instead and disposed of it at my hotel.) There is routine public urination and defecation, such that “better” homes will put pictures of the gods on their homes in hopes that it will deter men walking by from urinating on the sides of their homes. I had business in an area where people routinely go to the bathroom in the fields despite the presence of toilets that NGO’s provide, and where young girls stay home from school one week out of the month because there are no menstrual products for them to use and they have no choice but to use unsanitary rags that never dry out fully and cause infections. These are not positive aspects of the culture.
On the other hand, there are plenty of positive aspects of Indian culture - the people were warm and welcoming, the various temples are fascinating to learn about, we all could benefit from some more spirituality, Indian food is great, and yoga’s great too.
These are observations. These are not “racist.” Racist would be if I said - I’m not going to hire someone of Indian descent just because they are Indian. Or I’m going to ignore anyone of Indian descent in a business meeting, or refuse to sit next to them in a restaurant, or work with them on a project or whatever.
I think people would be well served between understanding that people can judge aspects of a culture negatively and yet not be racist. I can judge Texas-high-school-football-Friday-night-lights culture negatively. I can judge Harvard-or-bust culture negatively. I can judge aren’t-the-Kardashians-fab-but-I-couldn’t-name-the-vice-president-if-you-paid-me culture negatively.
"Even things like using aave or ebonics is cultural appropriation and very annoying. "
Are these really the aspects of African-American culture you wish to keep for yourself and / or promote as being the parts of your culture you take pride in?
You guys are missing the point. To pizzagirl, this is EXACTLY what I’m talking about. To be told that part of who you are/where you come from is not good enough or is wrong/backwards in some way and then to see it exploited by the very society who has led you to believe you are inferior your whole life is pretty messed up. AAVE is in no way a bad thing. It has its own grammar and everything, yet it gets popularized and misused by non-black teens who think it makes them sound cool or “ghetto.” For example “af,” it should be used after an adverb and I’ve never met an AA who uses it incorrectly yet everywhere I go I hear white kids saying things like “cookie af” which makes absolutely no sense. Now keep in mind the fact that black kids are often looked down upon when they same the same thing (and correctly might I add) while white kids are assumed to be able to “switch it off” so to speak and speak English “properly.” Black kids are not given that luxury, and in a couple of years when it’s not cool anymore, it will be forgotten and it will be labeled a sign of “uneducated” people instead of “trendy, hip-hop following” teens. Do you see how this is problematic? I should not have to live by the whims of a largely white society/media who cherry picks from minority cultures.
Still not getting it? I have a better example. Black hair. Black girls often get told their hair is ugly, get barred from jobs, lose out on love interests, etc. all because of what comes out of their head. Yet all of a sudden “ethnic” hair styles are trendy when put on a white girls head. You may be thinking what’s the problem its just hair. Imagine being told by society for nearly all your life that part of you is ugly. It goes from being just hair to being a vital part of your identity, something that sets you apart whether you want to be set apart or not. Society sees your hair and tells you your different (read inferior). Now it puts your hair on a white girl and calls her superior, am I supposed to shout for joy? Or be happy that someone thought my hair, when placed on someone else, was cool? How does that help me? Society still calls my hair ugly yet praises hers. This is not cultural sharing, it is appropriation. And if your still saying “it’s just hair get over it” you must have never felt this way. This is not something “self-love or toughness” can fix. I just wonder what America would be like if we loved minorities as much as we did their “trendy” culture.
I also don’t think I called anyone racist I called what they wrote racist. Pizzagirl what you are describing is discrimination based on race which is also racist. Also I appreciate that you guys are trying to understand, I just wish you would try harder instead of judging for yourself what is hurtful and what is not.
@westofguam
That is a valid point and those are valid feelings. I would only say I would hope people would have this conversation, rather than try to eliminate things. I don’t even think it sounds like you want to eliminate it, you just want people to understand and respect how you feel. And that is fair.
I guess I’m terribly old, but I have no clue what AAVE is? I promise not to try to use it;)