Can you identify the qualities that lead to that reaction?
@nottelling #58: I think firms that offer coaching are missing that this is a language change in progress, and so are missing the fact that even if said coaching is helpful to these women in the short term, in the long run it’s likely to be problematic for them—and I question if it’s even valuable in the short term, since making people (adults—children are different, intriguingly enough, but children are also less likely to change in response) hyper-aware of their own speech patterns seems to provide an impediment to clear communication.
Also, this xkcd is appropriate to the situation, because there’s always an appropriate xkcd to every situation: https://xkcd.com/1483/
Cukor-Avila’s line, though blunt, is entirely correct not just about quotative like but also about uptalk and vocal fry. And yes, linguists are more hardcore that way than one might expect from otherwise mild-mannered academics.
And I don’t know the specific speech patterns you’re talking about in your second paragraph, but the pronunciation pattern part of what I’m guessing you’re probably referring to (which the recurring SNL sketch “The Californians” parodied, actually quite well from a technical point of view) is widely called the “California Shift”, though there’s recognition that that’s a poor name for it, since it occurs throughout most of the US West, most of anglophone Canada, and the more southern parts of the Old Northwest (e.g., Ohio, Iowa), so you also see names like “Canadian Shift” and “Third Dialect Shift”.
Samantha Harris when she was the co-host of Dancing with the Stars. I found some videos of her in other venues, and it wasn’t as bad.
Such voices tend to have that very limited range that Amy Walker talks about in her video.
As a long-time user of the quotative “like,” I agree with the cartoon! How else do you convey: “What I am about to say is not a direct quote but also states out loud the obvious but unstated subtext”? You could say, “She was all, ‘…’,” but that implies more subtext and less direct quoting than, “She was like ‘…’”
“For example, I remember being criticized for strategies I consciously or unconsciously used to build rapport with female witnesses that were viewed by my male supervisors as appearing weak or lacking in confidence. They were not those things at all. It is hard to explain, but *there are certain things that women commonly do to build rapport *that tend to flatten out hierarchies.”
I think that’s a function of F vs T in Myers-Briggs, not feminine vs masculine. I disagree that using those strategies to build rapport is an inherently feminine thing to do. They are learnable / coachable / teachable strategies, not something irrevocably tied to possession of certain chromosomes or body parts.
@Pizzagirl #64: Agreed, but to be fair, that’s not what the quoted text claims—it says that there are certain things women commonly do. That’s an empirical claim about what women tend to do (full stop), not a claim that women do it because they’re women.
dfbdfb: Am I understanding correctly that I am mistaken to believe women are held to a male standard? Instead they are held to a completely unrealistic standard? Does it even matter how they talk? Will there be criticism of their speech regardless?
Basically, what conclusions is it possible to draw from the research you are sharing?
eta: edited out my “so”
I don’t think it is a function of F or T on the Myers/ Briggs. I’m about as far on the T side of that scale as it is possible to get, and my ex-husband is equally as far on the F side. He didn’t have those communication patterns; I did. I think the particular patterns I’m talking about are more about social conventions that apply differently to men and women than about inherent personality differences.
I don’t know that I’m going to do very well the first time I have a doctor who uses uptalk.
I might not live longer after, “Um, It’s not malignant?”
I finally looked up vocal fry. I haven’t really noticed that in my state, and I hope it stays that way. Pretty positive I don’t associate it with educated and upwardly mobile!
My D has/had hearing and language issues. Her voice is very low, and fairly monotone, especially in a public-speaking situation. I do think it may be a professional impediment, but it’s there after 18 years of speech therapy.
Why should “professional speech” be considered to be be the domain of males? I think it’s wrong to think that women can’t naturally exhibit a professional speech pattern in the work place.
I imagine that in days past, executive secretaries used professional speech, but I doubt that they were being masculine, just business professional.
Good luck finding one of those.
Re: the xkcd cartoon.
LOL. I recently heard a HYPS-educated lawyer politician speak to a formal audience. He like inserted “like” into like every sentence like there was no tomorrow! Young, smart guy with a bright future.
I think it is sexist policing, because I believe the standard we expect everyone (men as well as women) to adhere to is a male speech standard.>>>>>>>>>
A male speech standard? What is that? I only recognize a general professional speech standard. I had no idea there is a “male” one.
I honestly thought both fads were just that…a fad among very young or unevolved (Kardashian types) people used within their own social groups. I really never considered a young woman would make it all the way through college, grad school or professional school and into a career still speaking that way! Our pharmacy resident doesn’t and our pharmacy students doing their internship rotations don’t. It’s pretty amazing to me that someone could hang onto that pattern that long.
Just my thoughts.
this is a language change in progress>>>>>>>>>
This is what I am wondering. Ugh. Thank goodness I’ll be long gone by the time everyone is upspeaking!
@Pizzagirl - I think unless you work at a fashion magazine, most successful middle-aged women won’t be talking like Kim Kardashian or wearing miniskirts. It is great if you have a good number of successful women at your workplace. I doubt they want to feel like they are on reality TV.
There are plenty of women would be willing to be mentors, but maybe standards are too high (I can only be mentored by a department manager). Or maybe a really informal mentoring thing. Women seem scared of each other, and some are well hostile to each other too (never did understand that), but we probably need to be networking more, not less, than folks more tied into the good-ol-boy network.
@dadx that is sexist …
I’m trying to understand this. Is vocal fry what we used to call “whining”? Because that is what I associate with the Kardashians.
Vocal fry isn’t whining. It’s raspier than a whine. It’s sort of like speaking in a soft growl and in perhaps a somewhat lower register than your normal voice devoid of affectations.