US NEWS 2007 Predictions

College Search & Lists
301

<p>cghen,</p>

<p>let’s take a step back for a second here.</p>

<p>i’m not suggesting that Princeton’s physics dept is BETTER than Caltech’s. I acknowledge that Caltech’s is also one of the best.</p>

<p>several OTHER posters were debating that A was > B (insert either Caltech or Princeton for A or B).</p>

<p>MY POINT is that Princeton’s physics dept goes toe to toe with any in the nation (or world) be it Caltech or whomever.</p>

<p>MY POINT is that it’s at least as good not BETTER - which was the point of contention by other posters.</p>

302

<p>Actually, Slipper, I disagree on several fronts. Michigan has a better curriculum and faculty than Dartmouth. The wealth of undergraduate classes and quality of the faculty availlable to undergrads is incredible at Michigan. That’s an important criteria to be sure. And Slipper, TAs only teach 3% of classes at Michigan. You can check this out yourself as it is a matter of public record. 97% of classes at Michigan are taught by professors. TAs at Michigan merely assist professors with discussion groups and grading…and even then, it is limited to Freshmen and occasionally to Sophomore classes. </p>

<p>You really do not know much about Michigan’s alumni network. The alumni network at Michigan has little to do with athletics. Michigan alums are in love with their university, the town of Ann Arbor and their incredible 4 years at the UM…not merely with the athletic offerings of the University. The quality of the Michigan undergraduate experience, I am sure we can both agree, is hard to match. I will stand by my initial statement, Michigan’s alumni network is one of the best, most powerful/influential and most cohesive. </p>

<p>In terms of peer assessment, Dartmouth and Michigan are about the same, and this is probably the most important of all criteria.</p>

<p>I agree that Dartmouth focuses more on undergrads, and that is why I think Darmouth is more like a LAC than a university. Most top universities, like Cal, Chicago, Columbia (as I am sure you know), Cornell, Harvard, Johns Hopkins Michigan, MIT, Northwestern, Penn and Stanford, do not focus on undergrads.</p>

<p>In terms of the quality of the student bodies, Michigan holds its own. You have to be more choosy, but well over 60% of Michigan students compare to Dartmouth students, which is impressive considering the size of the university…so its not like Michigan lacks good students. </p>

<p>And yes, Dartmouth indeed has more money per student, but that’s rapidely changing. In 1990, Dartmouth’s endowment was larger than Michigan’s. Today, Michigan’s endowment is almost twice larger than Dartmouth’s. At this rate, over the next 15 years, Michigan will be just as wealthy as Dartmouth on a “per student” basis…and let us not forget that Michigan gets close to a billion dollars/year in state and federal money. </p>

<p>Overall, Michigan compares nicely with schools like Cornell, Northwestern and Penn rather than LAC-like colleges like Brown or Dartmouth. But in terms of overall excellence, if one is to compare all universities, I firmly believe that Dartmouth and Michigan belong in the same group.</p>

303

<p>Of course, we all know that you love your alma mater. However, whether actual students share the same affection I am very skeptical of. For example, in the USNEWS alumni giving rate, Michigan is significantly lower than those of other schools. </p>

<p>There is more to the undergrad than endowment per capita. A lot of it ties to how the school presents itself to the students and how undergrad-friendly the school is run.</p>

304

<p>Aurelius, alumni donation rates mean nothing. If they did, neither Dartmouth or Harvard would make the top 20. Alumni donation rates are 100% correlated to the size of the undergraduate program. Schools with fewer than 3,000 undergrads generally have alumni donation rates over 40%, schools with 4,000-8,000 undergrads generall have alumni donation rates over 30%, schools witrh 10,000-20,000 undergrads generally have alumni donaton rates over 20% and universities schools with 20,000+ undergrads generally have alumni donation rates over 10%. See a trend? The larger the school, the more alumns they have and the harder it is to reach out to them once they have left. Furthermore, state universities never sought alumni donations until the 1980s. In the 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, 1960s and 1970s, State schools were completely funded by the state and as such, state universities did not develop the same intricate and complex alumni donation plans that exist at private universities, which have always depended on alumni donations. </p>

<p>I repeat, alumni donation rates have nothing to do with alumni loyalty or satisfaction.</p>

305

<p>You know you’re going to get some reactions saying Umich equals or is greater than Dartmouth for undergrad.</p>

<p>Dartmouth vs Umich
It’s like 20% vs 60% Acceptance rate
1400+s SAT vs 1300+s SAT
A lot more % top 10% but this doesn’t matter as much since Umich is a state school and can be expected to have a lot of top 10%'s. Looking at top 5%'s could be more reflective.</p>

<p>Because of this data, the student body is better at Dartmouth as the school is a lot more selective in picking the best students rather than Umich who picks less of these good students (and having a lot of them go elsewhere) and then picking in-state people that Dartmouth would probably auto-reject.</p>

<p>Therefore you can’t really deny that Dartmouth enrolls much better students and its students are of a higher quality than Umich’s. I mean, just look at Yield and think of how many Umich people choose Umich because of the in-state tuition.</p>

<p>I really can’t see ANY kind of undergrad comparison here and I really have no affiliation with Dartmouth. It’s one of the Ivies I didn’t apply to.</p>

306

<p>ACA, where did I ever say that Michigan is better than Dartmouth? I said they are totally different and practically impossible to compare, but if one were to group universities according to overall academic excellence, they would probably be in the same group. </p>

<p>And yes, the average SAT score and SAT range at Dartmouth is higher than at Michigan. That cannot be denied. But you mentioned something about % graduating in the top 10% and top 5% of their class. Roughly 90% of Michigan graduated in the top 10% of their class and 70% graduated in the top 5% of their class. What I am saying is that 60% of Michigan students are comparable to students at schools like Dartmouth/Duke/Columbia, Chicago etc… Those students would have graduated with perfect-near perfect grades, SAT scores in the 1300-1600 range, top 5% class ranks, AP-heavy course selection and very impressive ECs. </p>

<p>I think there are several important criteria when rating a university. I think we can all agree that the peer assessment score is the most important single factor. Quality of faculty and curriculum, student excellence, resources availlable to students, corporate connections and reputation in the professional world and alumni network are all important too. If you look at all the criteria that matter, I’d say Michigan compares nicely with most other good universities. Keep in mind that both Darmouth and Michigan excel in every way, so there never can be a significant difference between the two in any one criteria:</p>

<p>Peer Assessment score: Dartmouth and Michigan are even
Quality of student body: Dartmouth edges Michigan
Faculty quality: Michigan edges Dartmouth
Instruction: Dartmouth edges Michigan
Curriculum (course offerings): Michigan edges Dartmouth
Resources: Dartmouth and Michigan are even
Research: Michigan edges Dartmouth
Undergraduate focus: Dartmouth edges Michigan
Graduate school placement: Dartmouth and Michigan are even
Corporate ties/job opportunities: Dartmouth and Michigan are even
Alumni Network: Dartmouth and Michigan are even</p>

307

<p>Actually Dartmouth’s acceptance rate is about 16%, and its SAT scores are about 10pts off of Princeton and Stanford to illustrate the point even further.</p>

<p>Alexandre, here’s my version.</p>

<p>Peer Assessment score: Dartmouth and Michigan are even
Quality of student body: Dartmouth edges Michigan
Faculty quality: Michigan edges Dartmouth
Instruction: Dartmouth edges Michigan
Curriculum (course offerings): Michigan edges Dartmouth (although unless you are really looking for some random major it doesnt matter)</p>

<p>Resources: Dartmouth edges Michigan. Dartmouth is mostly undergraduates and has much of its resources allocated to undergraduate funding/ research. Its also 1/7 the size of Michigan with 3/5 the endowment.</p>

<p>Research: Michigan edges Dartmouth</p>

<p>Undergraduate focus: Dartmouth edges Michigan
Graduate school placement: Dartmouth and Michigan are NOT even. WSJ and every other report has Dartmouth siginificantly higher. At all the top schools there are more Dartmouth graduates (percentage wise) than Michigan graduates by a significant margin. Show me any top 5 professional school where Michigan alums outnumber Dartmouth alums. Even in raw numbers they are often equal, remarkable given Dartmouth is 1/7 the size. Dartmouth’s placement is right after HYPS and maybe only Duke in every ranking/ placement survey I have seen. Also, a few top schools publish lists and Dartmouth destroys Michigan in students attending.</p>

<p>Corporate ties/job opportunities: Dartmouth edges Michigan. Both have the top firms come (4/5 consulting for example), but Michigan firms recruit at Ross more often than not. Hard to prove but my gut is percentage wise Dartmouth wins at all these firms by a significant margin. Once again though, a top Michigan student has top access, the same given to a Harvard student. Its just Dartmouth and Harvard students have an easier time getting the jobs.</p>

<p>Alumni Network: Dartmouth edges Michigan. 87% return to 5yr reunions, the infrastructure keeping people in touch is remarkable. Alexandre you’d never know this because only a Dartmouth student knows. I lived with a Columbia and a JHU alum this past year and the Dartmouht network blew those two out of the water. There are countless subtle things keeping dartmouth alums connected (proprietary email system where you can look up any alum and instantly send a message, weekly class emails, highest reunion return percentage, alumni giving, etc etc. Dartmouth beats all the Ivies except perhaps Princeton, who have similar infrastructure. This is the benefit of a loyal, SMALL, tight community. Having relatives that are Michigan grads and having a brother at UNC, I know those two don’t compare in these ways. The “degree-of-separation” at a school like Dartmouth is small, but the alums are I would guess more successful (or at worst as successful) as Michigan alums.</p>

<p>Anyway, my point is the Ivies foster communties and networks that are what make them stand out. Michigan has better professors and research, but this isn’t grad school and Michigan loses out in every other way. Only is very select areas does this matter (like Engineering). But even then truthfully most Ivy engineers end up going into finance or consulting anyway. This is why Dartmouth is a top 6-10 school and Michigan is a top 18-23.</p>

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<p>Peer Assessment score: who cares</p>

<p>Quality of student body: Dartmouth</p>

<p>Faculty quality: Dartmouth. FACT: the majority of professors at Dartmouth are dedicated to undergrads. No way, no how can Michigan even come close to that statement. When you walk into a class, you want to be taught by a proper professor not a TA.</p>

<p>Instruction: Dartmouth</p>

<p>Curriculum: even</p>

<p>Resources: Dartmouth (just look at the number, good luck
fighting for your scraps in the sea of Mich grad students / undergrads)</p>

<p>Research: wait a minute, are we comparing grad schools? nope. not relevant.</p>

<p>Undergrad focus: a Dartmouth Lebron James-like slam dunk over Michigan</p>

<p>Grad School Placement: Dartmouth (WSJ ranking #7), Michigan (WSJ ranking #30) how are they “even”?
Corporate ties/job opportunities: the “average”? Dartmouth. You can’t cherry pick the top Mich students and say they represent all of Michigan grads. Overall, the average Dartmouth senior will have better opportunities than the average Mich senior.</p>

<p>Alumni Network: Dartmouth. The Mich alums I know could really care less about their alma mater contrast this with my Dartmouth friends who BLEED Dartmouth GREEN till the day they die. Plus you have to create some sort of parity when you compare behemoth like Wal-Mart vs. a boutique like Armani. For example, you can’t say that the US is “richer” than, say, Switzerland just by looking at something like overall GDP. If you want to compare the two properly, you have to look at PER CAPITA GDP. and under that analysis, you will see that the Swiss are “richer” than the Americans (and by a fairly large margin). Everyone thinks that America is “richer” because we have guys like Bill Gates and Warren Buffett - but what they forget to mention is that for every Bill Gates there are a million guys barely keeping their head above water.</p>

309

<p>Dartmouth shmartmouth.</p>

310

<p>Dartmouth, just as you know Dartmouth, I know Michigan. Trust me, the Michigan alumni network is unbeatable. Dartmouth’s is too mind you. And I am not surprised that Dartmouth has a more potent alumni network than Columbia and Johns Hopkins. Those two schools are think tanks, not undergraduate heavens. Dartmouth and Michigan are two of the most pleasant college settings. Their students love their undergraduate experience. As far as the 87% participation in the 5th year reunion…that’s impressive. I’d say that as many Michigan alums return to Ann Arbor with several of their friends on an annual basis…and not necessarily for sporting events. They return to just hang out in Ann Arbor, participate in fundraisers, attend some art or music event etc…</p>

<p>And top companies do not recruit primarily at Ross. I majored in Economics, and many of my fellow classmates got jobs with major companies, many of them with MCs and IBs. I also knew many English, Political Science and Math majors, and their placement rates into top companies were just as impressive. In terms of professional placement, Michigan and Dartmouth are even.</p>

<p>Graduate school placement are also equal…assuming you are comparing apples to apples. The WSJ is reliable, but it is not necessarily very telling. As we both agree, the average Dartmouth student is indeed better than the average Michigan student. That explains why the mean GPA of Michigan students is somewhere around 3.0 compared to the averagre Dartmouth student who has a GPA in the 3.4 range. Furthermore, I’d say that 90% of Dartmouth students major in a traditional arts and science and the necessary next step in most cases is either a Phd or a graduate professional program. At Michigan, I’d say only 60% of the students major in such fields. 40% major in fields such as Engineering, Business, Nursing, Architecture, music etc… Finally, Dartmouth does not really have top professional schools, with the exception of Tuck, which is quite small. Michigan has top 10 professional schools accross the board. The WSJ only looks at the enrollment #s of students going into 5 medical schools, 5 MBA programs and 5 Law schools…and most of those programs happen to be East Coast schools (mainly Ivies). Although Michigan’s law school was included among the 5, Michigan’s top 10 MBA program and Michigan’s top 10 medical school (each of which enroll about 50 new Michigan students annually) were not included in the study. Furthermore, most Michigan students would rather stay in the Midwest for graduate school, and the WSJ was definitely East Coast biased. In short, equal students at either school will have equal graduate school opportunities. </p>

<p>Finally, resources. Yes, Dartmouth is primarily undergraduate, and its endowment is impressive considering its size. But you cannot ignore the $1 billion Michigan gets from State and Federal allocations. A private university would need an endowment of $20 billion to generate that sort of annual income. I stand by my statement, in terms of resources, Michigan and Dartmouth are even. </p>

<p>Ivy_grad, I don’t know what Michigan alums you met, but I think you met the worst Michigan has to offer. Michigan alums are known to be rabidly loyal. I had USC Trojans (also known to be very loyal) observe that Michigan alums are nuts, and I am not talking about football. Anyway, it is never wise to judge a university by merely looking at the handful of alumns that you have come accross. I have known 4 Dartmouth alums my whole life…and let me tell you, I was not impressed. I know that the numbers don’t lie and as such, I know Dartmouth is amazing and I will not question it because all 4 Dartmouth alums I met were sub-par. </p>

<p>Michigan students do not have to “fight for scraps”. Michigan is very rich. On a per/student basis, Michigan is as wealthy as Johns Hopkins and almost as wealthy as Brown, Cornell and Penn…and if youi take state funding into consideration, I’d say this even out nicely.</p>

<p>I am also pretty sure that I have already said that only 3% of Michigan classes are taught by TAs. That is a fact. You can look it up yourself. I personally took over 40 classes at Michigan and never had a TA teaching any of those classes. I agree that Dartmouth is more undergrad focused, but the difference is not as glaring as you’d think. Michigan is comparable to Cornell and Penn in this regard.</p>

<p>And I am pretty sure that I said that Michigan’s alumni network is one of the wealthiest PER CAPITA. 4th or 5th in the nation if I remember Forbes’ report properly. That was in 1997 or 1998, so I do not remember the exact numbers. Furthermore, to take your analogy futher, although Switzerland has a higher per capita GDP than the US, Switzerland’s $500 billion economy doesn’t even make a dent in Europe let alone the World. The US’s GDP of $13 trillion on the other hand can shake the foundation of the earth! So yes, wealth per student is very important, and Michigan does very well considering the economies of scale generated by its size and the fact that it is state funded, but overall endowment is also very important. Michigan builds facilties and hires professors by the thousands that universities with endowments below $3 billion simply cannot afford.</p>

311

<p>listen, this michigan hysteria is really sorta amusing. let’s put it this way. what college ultimately boils down to is the people you’re surrounded by. i can take organic chemistry at harvard and at michigan and get more or less the same experience (although it’s probably pumped up a bit more at harvard). same goes for an english class, history class. forget specific professors who you can get only at school X; on average, i would say that it evens out. so, the question that remains is the following: where am i going to find a more talented student body? the answer is at a school like dartmouth. it takes more in terms of academics and extracurriculars to get into a school like dartmouth than it does to get into a school like michigan. that’s indisputable. therefore we can conclude that dartmouth is the superior institution (assuming that one desires the environment that dartmouth has to offer). this is not to say that we won’t find brilliant, wonderful people at michigan. in general, though, you’re going to be surrounded by more academically successful and talented people at dartmouth. nothing more really needs to be said on this issue. forget the nitpicky statistics/research projects. dartmouth is the better school, plain and simple.</p>

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<p>The US’s GDP of $13 trillion on the other hand can shake the foundation of the earth!</p>

<p>No doubt the US economy is THE biggest kid on the block by a considerable margin. No one is arguing that. </p>

<p>BUT that only tells you half the story (actually more like 1/8th the story). I don’t want to get bogged down in statistics, but take for instance: the fact that the Swiss are in the Top 5 (+ $40bn) in world’s current account balance (vs. the US in dead last -$650bn). No. 6 in world gold reserves (1/8th the US) - all for a country that has a population less than New York City - that’s the City not State! </p>

<p>Look at the number of unemployed in the US. Look at the number of people on welfare. Look at crime statistics. Look at the sheer number of people who don’t have BASIC health care coverage.</p>

<p>When you take into account all of the other “factors” outside of sheer brute numbers, can you actually say that the “average” person in America LIVES BETTER than the “average” Swiss? The Swiss have UNIVERSAL health care coverage. The Swiss has nearly universal education coverage (up to and including university) -> universal literacy. The Swiss have half the unemployment of the EU.</p>

<p>Free from crime. Free from terrorism. Free from war.</p>

<p>I love America, but there are some things we could learn from the Swiss.</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Sure. In terms of average undergrad quality in Physics, Caltech is better than Princeton as the workload (esp for Physics major) at Caltech is by far harder than that at Princeton. In terms of grad students and faculty, they are equal. The fact that Institute of Advanced Study is often associated with Princeton elevates its prestige to MIT/Caltech level in Physics. Nevertheless, they can still be categorized in the same level of prestige. I believe you can grasp though vaguely the notion of prestige I mentioned previously.</p>

314

<p>I agree with you Ivy_Grad. I personally love the European model, not just the Swiss model. Europe is a socialist, which generally leads to a more humane approach to society, assuming the funds are availlable…and since Europe is quite rich, it works for them. One of my favorite movies ever was the Third Man, directed by Carol Reed and starring Orson Welles at his best. In it, Orson Welles gives a comparative definition of Italy and Switzerland. It goes like this:</p>

<p>“In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock …”</p>

<p>Hehe! Of course, I agree that Denmark and Switzerland are ideal societies. </p>

<p>At any rate, I don’t think one can compare universities or alumni networks to nations. The point I was making is that Michigan’s wealth affords its students the best of opportunities and Michigan’s alums are among the wealthiest on a per-capita basis.</p>

315

<p>Brostrad, I disagree with your statement…not in terms of content, but in terms of degree. Yes, it greatly enhances one’s educational experience if one is in the presence of excellent students, but where we disagree is in the degree to which we think we need to be surrounded by great students. I personally feel that if two thirds of the students around me are excellent, I am as well off as if 90% of the students around me are excellent.</p>

<p>I also think you seriously downplay the imporance of the faculty and curriculum. Those are at least as important as the quality of the student body.</p>

316

<p>

I hope you do … when you apply for graduate school (I mean grad school in the more general sense, not just law/medicine). The people evaluating your grad school application are the same people who voted for the peer assessment of your undergraduate program.</p>

<p>I consider peer assessment a measure of the prestige of a school among its academic peers.</p>

317

<p>No, those are not the same people. For example, Berkeley has a 4.8 peer assessment score, yet it ranks lower than Michigan in the feeder ranking. A few years back, Berkeley’s rate of getting its students into medical school was below national average. Professional school admission has little to do with academic research prestige.</p>

318

<p>Hence why GoBlue said “grad school.” Surely you agree it matters there.</p>

319

<p>

Do I have to remind everyone again and again that Engineering is a professional school too (for that matter, so is Dental, Pharmacy, Public Health, etc). In fact, there are more grad students in Engineering than in Medicine and Law combined.</p>

<p>And there are far more PhD students than MDs. Thus for the majority of the graduate students (and hence the majority of undergrads who intend to go onto grad school), peer assessment matters. That’s the reality.</p>

320

<p>No offense to any of you, but if you think the European model is something to strive for…you’re absolutely nuts. Yes, a lot of things here arn’t perfect, but quite frankly, the 2 things you pointed out, arn’t that great. The universal health care plan is well known for being crappy and nothing to write home about. Also, you can practically get a free education in the US. Sure, you have to go to community college, or the tier 4 open door state university in your state, but then again - its not like switzerland is just busting at the seems with quality universities. I’m sure the vast majority of the public couldn’t name a school in switzerland, and for those who can - the majority of them couldn’t even tell you anything more about it other than its swiss.</p>

<p>in short, I’d rather live here than live in switzerland and pay 60%+ taxes for all those lovely “government provided” facilities.</p>