<p>I think it is just geography. If it were disparity between the quality of the school and the difficulty of oos admission, that wouldn’t explain why a school like UNC gets a majority (11000 of 18000) of oos applicants and is slightly more selective oos (19% vs 21%) than berkeley. UNC is cheaper than Berkeley. But the disparity in difficulty of admission and quality of school is surely greater at UNC than at berkeley and it doesn’t discourage non-residents from applying to chapel hill.</p>
<p>IF UVA is more of a safety school than cal, why is the oos yield at cal 27% while it is 35-37% at UVA. Cal is harder to get into but cal also has a better reputation. People should be more likely to pick private schools over Uva than over cal, even if they got into a better set of private schools since they got into Cal.</p>
<p>Suman, Rochester should be in the top 20 based upon what? It’s a good school on the rebound with new leadership. Several of their depts were decimated by professors leaving. It is still a solid school and if it were in a different location would be more desirable. Imagine if U of R switched lcoations with Tufts? Miami? Emory? Georgetown? </p>
<p>I doubt any schools in the top 20 have a 19% yield.</p>
<p>It may be more selective, but keep in mind that there’s more to selectivity than a percentage accepted number.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I bring up the instate point to illustrate that many “in-state” Berkeley students are only technically so. They are there for cheap tuition and easier admissions, but not so much for the ‘cultural fit’. As a case in point, I would argue that people in West Virginia share more in common culturally, with the people from the Western part of Virginia than do the people in Virginia that live in the East Coast of Virginia. And heck, I would say that the average West Virginian shares more in common with the typical person living in the city of Charlottesville (I’m not talking about the student body and the faculty of Uva, I’m talking about the residents of the town and the surrounding area). As I’m sure most you realize, West Virginia actually used to be part of Virginia until the Civil War, and the two states still share numerous cultural ties. Yet the fact is, if you live in West Virginia, then you are technically considered an ‘out-of-state’ student for the purposes of UVA admissions and tuition. That obviously deters quite a few West Virginia students.</p>
<p>California is a huge state and therefore encompasses a bunch of areas that, quite frankly, have more cultural differences than do many of the East Coast states. For example, there is more of a difference between SoCal and Norcal than there is between, say, New Hampshire and Maine. Or Connecticut and Rhode Island.</p>
<p>I generally agree with you (althoug I’m not very familiar with the areas you bring up as examples). However, I think you’re too extreme in your assesments (e.g. “Southern California and Northern California share nothing in common culturally.” Perhaps the cultural differences have less to do with geography and more to do with other factors. While there are general trends in the large sections (so cal, nor cal), there are huge pockets of difference within each, and perhaps difference may be more prevalent due to race, class, and other things rather than geography. I don’t know, though.</p>
<p>“Alexandre, I graduated with a 3.51 in 2002 (33rd percentile) and got offers from 2/5 top consulting firms in the world. I then went to a top 7 B-school as the youngest member of my class. I am not extrordinary at all, most of my friends with 3.2+ ended up at top 7 or better b-schools. Even friends with less than 3.0s are now ending up at top 15 B-schools, a friend of mine with a 2.9 just got into NYU. I would say about 60% of my class had similar offers if they went into business. My friends with 3.75+ went to places like Harvard and Penn Med schools (top 15%), and even my friends with 3.6s are at places like Duke Med! Dartmouth is the second most represented school at Stanford B-school, and fifth at Columbia. It wipes the floor with Michigan at Harvard law. Michigan is nowhere to be found on any list I have seen outside of perhaps Michigan grad schools.”</p>
<p>I have seem similar success with Michigan students with similar grades, only at Michigan, only 20% of its students have GPAs over 3.49 and only 10% have GPAs over 3.7, which is only fair considering that Michigan has a weaker student body than Dartmouth. </p>
<p>“You say the average at Michigan is a 3.0 (and factor in grads inflation too!), so you were well beyond an average student at Michigan in 1996. You also have mentioned before (while arguing Michigan had plenty of good students) that you were able to find a group of much better than average Michigan students as your friends. So are they average, or not? I was much more average and yet had the same success, outside of a couple firms I literally could not have done better.” </p>
<p>I explained myself clearly. By “average”, I did not mean 50th %ile, I meant that I was not unusual. I was not ranked in the top 20% of my class. Most of the people I know got good jobs with great companies or admission into respected graduate programs. </p>
<p>“EVEN if you remove nursing and other vocationals schools and just include the college and engineering, Michigan still can’t compete with placement percentages at the top grad schools. Show me ONE top 5 school where Michigan percentage-wise beats Dartmouth!”</p>
<p>Michigan Law and Michigan Business are both considered top 5 and Michigan sends far more students to either of those two amazing programs than does Dartmouth. Each year, over 100 Michigan students forgo Ivy League graduate acceptances to join one of those two Michigan graduate programs. Do you know that most Michigan students will chose a Michigan graduate program over any other graduate program? That’s to be expected since Michigan students love their experience so much. Last year, 150 Michigan students enrolled into top 10 Law schools. Of those, 65 chose Michigan. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.lsa.umich.edu/lsa/detail/0,2034,12364_html_690,00.html[/url]”>http://www.lsa.umich.edu/lsa/detail/0,2034,12364_html_690,00.html</a></p>
<p>Does Dartmouth send more than 100 of its students to top 10 Law schools?</p>
<p>You said that Dartmouth “wipes the floor with Michigan at Harvard Law”? You make it sound like Dartmouth sends 25 or 30 students to Harvard Law annually and that Michigan sends fewer than a handful. In fact, each year, both schools send roughly 10 students to Harvard Law, and Michigan is a Midwestern school with its own top 5 Law school and with no affiliation to Harvard. I’d say Michigan does ok for itself considering those facts.</p>
<p>Michigan also sends more students than Dartmouth to Chicago Law School, Chicago B-School, Northwestern Law School, Kellogg and Wharton. So, right there, we have 4 of the top 8 Business Schools and 3 of the top 10 Law schools where Michigan is better represented than Dartmouth, and I have not bothered checking with the rest.</p>
<p>By the way Slipper, I don’t know much about the Cal and Wisconsin alum networks, but I would not give up the Michigan alumni network for anything in the World. It has served me well and its members are highly successful and well-intentioned. I could never ask for more from such an esteemed group of people.</p>
<p>Alexandre, </p>
<p>a few quick points:</p>
<p>1) Any reasonable person would assume that Michigan undergrads have a decided advantage applying to Michigan grad schools - the fact that Michigan sends more of its own undergrads to Michigan graduate schools vs. Dartmouth tells you what exactly? That Michigan loves and takes care of its own (happens all the time - check out Harvard -> Harvard grad schools). Q: what does the Michigan -> Michigan grad school / Harvard -> Harvard grad school phenomenon tell you about Dartmouth? A: “The price of tea in China.”</p>
<p>2) Misusing AGGREGATE NUMBERS. You keep talking about the ACTUAL number of Michigan undergrads that go here or go there - this tells you only half the story. How can you fairly compare a school which has more students in a graduating senior class than the entire undergrad student body of the other? (i.e. Michigan’s 6,000 seniors vs. Dartmouth’s 4,000 undergrads)</p>
<p>Either per/capita or %-age numbers tell you the full story. That’s why Michigan’s ranking of 30 in the WSJ feeder ranking and feeder score of 2.73% vs. Dartmouth’s no. 7 ranking and feeder score of 8.45% is more telling.</p>
<p>3)
</p>
<p>Last time I checked Dartmouth and Harvard were separate institutions.</p>
<p>Alexandre, Michigan is also 7 times the size of Dartmouth. Remove the vocational schools and its five times the size. The fact that Dartmouth sends about an equal or higher RAW number to these schools is outstanding.</p>
<p>Michigan is not a top 5 MBA program, not is it a top 5 Law school. In almost no ranking ever is it top 5 anywhere. Its impressive that Michigan likes its own, but prestige and feeder scores are related to other schools liking the graduates as well. Dartmouth is a huge feeder into Tuck, but I will be objective to say its also not top 5 as much as I would love it to be. You can have Michigan grad schools and I’ll take the real top 5.</p>
<p>Top 5 “generally considered Law Schools”
Yale
Harvard
Stanford
Columbia
NYU</p>
<p>Top 5 MBAs
Harvard
Kellogg
Stanford
Wharton
Chicago-Columbia-MIT given who you are and what year it is.</p>
<p>Michigan is a 7-12 grad school in most areas. I am an MBA and we have conferences with the top 7 business schools and other events (example <a href=“http://www.mba7gcf.com/[/url]”>http://www.mba7gcf.com/</a>) Michigan is considered top 10, but not top 5.</p>
<p>Wow, are you guys still arguing over the Berkeley vs. Michigan thing? You’re persistent.</p>
<p>ihateCA,</p>
<p>what’s wrong with Cali?</p>
<p>Lol true, cali is awesome.</p>
<p>Slipper, first of all, Michigan is not 7 times larger than Dartmouth…it is 6 times larger. Without the “vocational schools”, it is 4 times larger. But you haven’t answered my question, Michigan sent 150 students to top 10 Law schools last year…how many did Dartmouth send? 60? Maybe 70? </p>
<p>Secondly, Michigan is generally considered a top 5 Law school. Law schools are generally lumped in two groups. Harvard, Stanford dand Yale in one, Chicag, Columbia, Michigan and NYU in the other. Even according to the USNWR, Michigan’s ranking according to academe is #6, tied with NYU and according to Lawyers and Judges is #5, tied with Columbia. According to top Law firms, Michigan is #4.</p>
<p>And according to half the MBA rankings, including Businessweek, Michigan’s MBA program is considered top 5 too. </p>
<p><a href=“Businessweek - Bloomberg”>Businessweek - Bloomberg;
<p>At any rate, my point stands, whether students go to Dartmouth or Michigan, the opportunities availlable to them will be practically identical. The main difference is the atmosphere. Some people will prefer Dartmouth…others with prefer Michigan.</p>
<p>Ihateca, try reading the thread before you post. Its UMich vs Dartmouth</p>
<p>Actually GentlemanandScholar, it is about top public and top privates. When I speak of Michigan, I also speak for Cal and UVa.</p>
<p>I once again totally disagree. </p>
<p>Michigan sent only twice as many to the top 10 law schools but its 4-6 times larger. Hmmm.</p>
<p>The fact of the matter is you think Michigan is top 5 grad for Law and MBA and the general population thinks otherwise. Columbia is #3 Financial Times, #2 forbes but I don’t think its in the top 3. Dartmouth (Tuck) is #6USNEWS and #1 WSJ but no one really thinks its that high. If 7 schools work together, recruit together, and have conferences together and Michigan isn’t on that list I guess they must be wrong as well. Sakky want to help? </p>
<p>Dartmouth and Michigan are not close to comparable. Choosing between the two as equals strikes me as absolutely ridiculous and 95% of graduates from the real top ten schools would agree with me.</p>
<p>Alexandre,</p>
<p>You still don’t address to point of comparing apples to apples.</p>
<p>Using your numbers (I have no idea if they are accurate), but for argument’s sake let’s use your figures of 150 Mich undergrads to top 10 law schools vs. D-mouth’s 70. </p>
<p>Using your figures of Michigan’s class being anywhere from 6x to 4x larger - and adjusting them to analyze Dartmouth’s 70 undergrads - then to compare apples to apples you either do one of the following:</p>
<p>1) Multiply D-mouth’s 70 by (6x) = 420 or (4x) = 280, either way D-mouth’s number is way higher</p>
<p>or</p>
<p>2) Divide Michigan’s number by the multiplier: 150/4 = 38 or 150/6 = 25, either way Michigan’s number are way lower.</p>
<p>As for top b-schools:</p>
<p>1) Wharton
2) HBS
3) Stanford
4) Kellogg
5) Columbia / MIT / Chicago</p>
<p>Mich is at best no. 8</p>
<p>Ivy is right. I’d say we speak for most ivy alumni, and once again its a case of which network are you trying to impress. Michigan alumni OR all the Ivies, Stanford, Duke, Amherst, etc alumni. </p>
<p>Funny think is Alexandre, I would say even most Michigan alums would consider it a lesser school. I visited Michigan twice during college and when I said I went to Dartmouth, I would say 90% of the time the response was “Wow” or “you must be smart.” My brother attends UNC and I get the same reaction. As in “you go to a better school.” To be honest you have to downplay it. Case closed.</p>
<p>And besides “peer score” has Michigan ever been ranked in the top 10 by any ranking system ever in the history of undergraduate rankings?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>To play devil’s advocate, if someone <em>did</em> have the opportunity to choose between Dartmouth and Michigan, isn’t it reasonable to assume that someone with the stats to get into Dartmouth might be driven enough to make the most of a Michigan experience? Clearly both offer great opportunities for the above-average student.</p>
<p>To take my devil’s advocate hat off, though, for the typical out-of-state student I’d be lying if I said I wouldn’t give an edge to Dartmouth.</p>
<p>I think berkeley is far and away the best state school for the record. I was just pointing out how much of shame it is that they are so regional undergrad. This is probably the major reason they are ranked lower than they should be undergrad.</p>