US Supreme Court to hear Second Amendment case

<p>I sincerely doubt your rather extreme suggestion would survive the “reasonableness” test. Even the staunchest NRA member would never tolerate proliferation of WMDs under A2.</p>

<p>Case law was consistent in the personal right view up until 1939 when a poorly crafted decision created the current state of confusion. At least one notable case prior to 1939 involved attempts to keep firearms from the hands of former slaves after the Civil War.</p>

<p>I believe A2 will be clarified and affirmed as a personal right subject to reasonable regulation. This is a position I believe we can all live with.</p>

<p>It depends on the relevance of the 2nd Amendment. The NRA crowd always talks about the use of arms to “resist government”. I personally believe we should toss the 2nd out, however if these guys really want to resist the government what good is a handgun gonna do them.</p>

<p>Resisting government tyranny is perhaps the original and central purpose of the right. Secondary aspects include self defense and preservation and sporting purposes.</p>

<p>One pistol, one rifle, it really doesn’t matter. The point is you have a right to own and use one or not. It’s all up to you (assuming you are not a convicted felon, domestic abuser, drug user, subject to court-ordered restraint, determined to be mentally ill, etc).</p>

<p>Here’s an interesting quote:</p>

<p>*The last time the court examined the meaning of the Second Amendment was in a 1939 case in which two men claimed the amendment gave them the right to have sawed-off shotguns. A unanimous court ruled against them.</p>

<p>Gun control advocates say the 1939 decision in U.S. v. Miller settled the issue in favor of a collective right. Gun rights proponents say the decision has been misconstrued.</p>

<p>Chief Justice John Roberts has said the question has not been resolved by the Supreme Court. The 1939 decision ‘‘sidestepped’’ the issue of whether the Second Amendment right is individual or collective, Roberts said at his confirmation hearing in 2005.</p>

<p>‘‘That’s still very much an open issue,’’ Roberts said.*</p>

<p>From: [Supreme</a> Court Could Take On 2nd Amendment - Newsmax.com](<a href=“http://www.newsmax.com/us/supreme_court_guns/2007/11/12/48853.html]Supreme”>http://www.newsmax.com/us/supreme_court_guns/2007/11/12/48853.html)</p>

<p>“Resisting government tyranny is perhaps the original and central purpose of the right. Secondary aspects include self defense and preservation and sporting purposes.”</p>

<p>where does the secondary aspect come from?</p>

<p>am I missing something from the following 27 words?</p>

<p>Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.</p>

<p>I am still waiting for a response from all you want to be NRA-members and hard right-Busheviks.</p>

<p>If the role of the 2nd Amendment is to resist government tyranny a handgun isn’t gonna do much against the most well-funded army in the word? Why not allow RPG’s or WMD’s in the hand of people if that is the objective?</p>

<p>parent2noles, do you recognize that you’re asking activist Supreme Court Justices to engraft a whole slew of exceptions, modifications, and qualifications onto the Second Amendment to reach the goal you prefer? I don’t see anything in the Amendment about “reasonable regulation.” If it’s a personal “right”, it “shall not be infringed.” I understand you’re stating what you think would be a better rule, but it’s not in the language of the Constitution. Maybe you should push for a Constitutional Amendment to put whatever it is that you think the second amendment should say in there. </p>

<p>Whatever happened to “strict construction?”</p>

<p>“Resisting government tyranny is perhaps the original and central purpose of the right. Secondary aspects include self defense and preservation and sporting purposes.”</p>

<p>Neither self-defense nor preservation nor sporting purposes have ever been recognized at the federal level as having any relationship to the Second Amendment whatsoever. There are state laws that cover these in some cases, but not the Bill of Rights. </p>

<p>“Why not allow RPG’s or WMD’s in the hand of people if that is the objective?”</p>

<p>My reading of the Constitution is that it likely does. But not handguns.</p>

<p>We have freedom from the state imposing a religion on us; yet if a couple wants to deny, on religious grounds, a blood transfusion to their minor child, the court regularly overturns their decision. We have freedom of speech, yet the Court has held for years that you cannot yell “fire” in a crowded theater. Where will we draw this line if at all?</p>

<p>It will be interesting.</p>

<p>Very interesting ideas. Of course, the process moves ahead nonetheless. </p>

<p>It is perfect timing that this occurs in the middle of the presidential election period.</p>

<p>yup. looks like the republicans managed to get this wedge issue so early out of the bag.</p>

<p>I find it totally engaging. :)</p>

<p>This is one event where it appears our government will correct itself after some 70 years of near-complete suppression of a personal right to one of recognition of that basic right and finally complete legal and political realization of that right.</p>

<p>What makes this topic particularly interesting is the concept of ideas and principles of human rights being more important than personal politics. The admittedly liberal scholars of the law articulated the personal right view repeatedly. That’s correct - apparently the first credible (embraced?) published analyses of A2 came from law professors who were perhaps aghast to see they had to reckon with what they considered an embarrassing personal right. Then, and most importantly, these scholars used the greatest of personal integrity to research and publish their findings which directly contradicted their personal politics. Simply magnificent.</p>

<p>Here’s one of those analyses and a snippet from the text: </p>

<p>Stanford Levinson’s *The Embarrassing Second Amendment<a href=“Yale%20Law%20Journal,%20Volume%2099,%20pp.%20637-659”>/i</a>
<a href=“http://www.constitution.org/mil/embar2nd.txt[/url]”>http://www.constitution.org/mil/embar2nd.txt&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>*The Second Amendment, though, is radically different from these other
pieces of constitutional text just mentioned, which all share the
attribute of being basically irrelevant to any ongoing political
struggles. To grasp the difference, one might simply begin by noting
that it is not at all unusual for the Second Amendment to show up in
letters to the editors of newspapers and magazines. [26] That judges and
academic lawyers, including the ones that write casebooks, ignore it is
most certainly not evidence for the proposition that no one else cares
about it. The National Rifle Association, to name the most obvious
example, cares deeply about the Amendment, and an apparently serious
Senator of the United States averred that the right to keep and bear
arms is the “right most valued by free men.” [27] Campaigns for Congress
in both political parties, and even presidential campaigns, may turn on
the apparent commitment of the candidates to a particular view of the
Second Amendment. This reality of the political process reflects the
fact that millions of Americans, even if (or perhaps especially if) they
are not academics, can quote the Amendment and would disdain any
presentation of the Bill of Rights that did not give it a place of
pride.</p>

<p>I cannot help but suspect that the best explanation for the absence of
the Second Amendment from the legal consciousness of the elite bar,
including that component found in the legal academy, [28] is derived
from a mixture of sheer opposition to the idea of private ownership of
guns and the perhaps subconscious fear that altogether plausible,
perhaps even “winning,” interpretations of the Second Amendment would
present real hurdles to those of us supporting prohibitory regulation.
Thus the title of this essay --The Embarrassing Second Amendment – for
I want to suggest that the Amendment may be profoundly embarrassing to
many who both support such regulation and view themselves as committed
to zealous adherence to the Bill of Rights (such as most members of the
ACLU). Indeed, one sometimes discovers members of the NRA who are
equally committed members of the ACLU, differing with the latter only on
the issue of the Second Amendment but otherwise genuinely sharing the
libertarian viewpoint of the ACLU.*</p>

<p>I may actually be outing myself as a bit of a liberal here, but I have written to the ACLU about A2. I refused to support many other common interests I share with them unless they recognize A2 as much as they do A1. </p>

<p>We are currently deadlocked over A2.</p>

<p>Parent2noles, the reason that there will be no “agreement” over the Second Amendment is that the supporters of the individual right are gun nuts. </p>

<p>[Waits for howls of outrage to subside]</p>

<p>I’ve got no dog in this fight - I don’t really care about the outcome of the “debate” - it’s an interesting problem in legal interpretation, but to me that’s about it. But gun nuts are driven by emotion - they love their guns. Literally. It’s not a rational motivation, it’s a visceral one.</p>

<p>[Waits again for howls to subside.]</p>

<p>But the gun nuts recognize that saying “I love my guns, I want them, don’t take them away or I’ll be really unhappy” isn’t a real good selling point - most of them aren’t even capable of the level of self awareness needed to even recognize or admit their own motivations. So you get the painfully transparent ratiocination about how individual gun ownership is a really, really important right. P2N - we’re not going to stave off government tyranny with handguns and hunting rifles. Gun owners are more likely to kill (or be killed by) their friends and family, accidentally or on purpose, and they really aren’t going to heroically capture or defeat “the bad guys.” (Not in the real world, that is. If you take a survey you will have millions of people reporting that they have prevented crimes with their trusty six-guns. Problem is - it isn’t actually true.) No one needs to feed their starving family with meat they bring home by hunting. Gun love is driven by an unspoken, unacknowledged adolescent fantasy - and a really, really powerful one. That’s why you’re not going to see a rational resolution of this issue. One side is driven by an overwhelming, unadmitted emotional need, which cannot be addressed by rational debate or analysis. </p>

<p>P.S. - the Second Amendment? It’s poorly written. I’d mark it “awkward” in the margin with a big ??? indicating that the meaning is really unclear. But standard principles of interpretation of documents require that you don’t ignore a part of a sentence. You’re supposed to assume that whoever wrote it put it there for a reason. That’s why I have a problem with the idea that the “militia” part of the Second Amendment actually doesn’t affect the meaning of the text.</p>

<p>One supreme court justice suggested putting A2 like this:</p>

<p>Because a well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.</p>

<p>The political disagreement will go on, for attitudes as you relate, ad nauseum. What will be interesting is that the debate will then take the character, correctly - in my opinion, of what is a “reasonable limitation” of that right because, as we all know, no personal right is unlimited.</p>

<p>Let the debate begin. :)</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Meaning:</p>

<ol>
<li> Supporters of the individual liberty interpretation are gun nuts.</li>
<li> Gun nuts are not capable of rational thought.</li>
<li> Therefore, supporters of the individual liberty interpretation are not capable of rational thought.</li>
</ol>

<p>

</p>

<p>Meaning: People who support individual gun ownership are stupid and emotional, unlike me.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Meaning: Gun owners are still stupid.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>The fact that it might not work today does not change that this may have been one of the important justifications for the Second. I would suggest that not realizing that the Bill of Rights was written in a certain historical context might show a certain lack of intellectual depth normally ascribed to those “emotional” gun ownership supporters.</p>

<p><snip typical anti-gun ownership arguments, presented without citation, and basically as fact-free as the OP claims that gun ownership proponents’ arguments are.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>… whereas the other side are clear-thinking models of mature, rational thought, right? Making fun of the opposing side and calling them names is an old Anglo-American political tradition, but it generates more heat than light. It does, however, reinforce a warm feeling of self-congratulations on the part of the speaker/writer.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>It’s a little murky, but it’s not all that bad. To paraphrase using more modern speech: “We think a well-armed and trained organized citizenry is important. Therefore, the right of citizens may not be infringed.” The first clause describes why the drafters of the Bill of Rights took up this issue among all the others suggested, and the second enumerates the rights. I also think you could take either the collectivist or individual approach, and I think thoughtful, intelligent people have done so.</p>

<p>Even though I am not a gun owner (and never have been), I don’t agree with Kluge that you have to be a mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging, pick-up driving, country music-listening cracker married to his sister and living in a shack raising 16 children to be in favor of individual gun ownership.</p>

<p>Mr. Kluge,</p>

<p>You just called about 60 million Americans irrational, emotionally immature, and in denial. The howls of outrage are deserved. </p>

<p>Let me give you one example of a gun owner in my family, and I swear this is true. My aunt and uncle live in rural North Carolina. Her uncle, an elderly man living in a small home, was brutally murdered with an axe. She found his body. The uncle had written a letter to the police weeks earlier complaining of a man nearby dealing drugs and harassing him. This man lives a few houses down. He was arrested for the uncle’s death. Here’s where the gun comes into play. The alleged murderer’s family put together enough money for his bail (A5, A6, A8). Upon hearing this, my family was outraged. They went to the sheriff with concerns for their safety and his response was, “Well, have you got a gun?” “No.” “You’re the only people in the county who don’t.” So with the man believed to have killed her uncle living a mile away, my aunt and uncle bought several firearms and got training. My 60 year-old aunt is a school administrator and she has a concealed weapon permit. Given the choice, she would rather spend her Saturdays gardening than going to the range. I am really offended by your characterization of gun owners because it expresses a significant ignorance about the reality of gun ownership. Stereotypes of “the other side” are one reason why we have not had a major, mature discussion on firearms since the so called Assault Weapons Ban. There are firearms fanatics certainly but you can’t say that 20% of the US population is incapable of the self-awareness necessary to see their motivations for gun ownership.</p>

<p>This is an exceptional story and many people do have guns so they can go hunting for sport, which is economically beneficial. If you want to talk ration, lets talk hunting. Deer are the most dangerous animal in the United States. Not bears, not wolves, not mountain lions. According to rough estimates from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, deer collisions cause about $900 million in overall economic cost (deaths + property damage + injuries). Hunting licenses, tourism, firearm sells, clothing sales, and other associated hunting wares bring in well over that. Duck stamps alone, required only for migratory waterfowl hunters, have raised $700 million in Federal revenue since their inception. According to the Animal Use Issues Committee of the International Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies, hunting generates 1 million jobs and $67 billion dollars of economic output in the United States. Much of this hunting is done with firearms. 78% of Americans believe hunting should be legal. That’s a rational motivation on a national scale to keep firearms. I suppose when I buy a gun I’ll lose that ability to reason.</p>

<p>I don’t think many gun owners are looking to stave off tyranny. Instead, they are looking for a sense of peace and security in their daily lives.</p>

<p>Thanks for reading.</p>

<p>WashDad, ninja, thank you for your excellent examples of the *painfully transparent<a href=“and%20utterly%20predictable”>/I</a> responses from the gun nut contingent. (Ninja - did you even stop to think about the improbability of a brutal axe murdered being released on bail before copying that ludicrous - but emotionally satisfying, story?)</p>

<p>

No dinky hand gun is gonna stop that guy. Gramma better get certified on some heavy weaponry.</p>

<p>Why on earth would I make that up? What is there to be gained? I am really disappointed that you would even accuse me of such a thing. Your complete lack of empathy and immediate accusation of plagiarism reveal a great deal about you. Do you really think I’m that stupid? Do you honestly believe that I would be so <em>dumb</em> as to use a story that seemingly unbelievable as an indicative example of gun ownership? If it WAS false, I would’ve hedged my bet and used something much more plausible. I attended the closed-casket funeral and saw the crime scene weeks after. You’re welcome to doubt all you want but I know that I’m not lying and hope you’ll take my word for it. If you refuse to trust someone in someone in something as inane as an internet argument, there’s nothing I can do. The accused was released on bail because the case is mainly circumstantial with little definitive hard evidence.</p>

<p>The above two posts are remarkably callous. Please provide a response to the rational side of my post and an apology.</p>

<p>You are right. It was callous and insensitive. But there should be no necessity that I take your word for it - you can readily demonstrate my ignorance. I assume the murder and the arrest are a matter of public record - can you please provide the name of the deceased and his alleged murderer so I can verify?</p>

<p>I’m not going to release this information publicly, I have PM’d it to you. I do not want my family to search his name and find a silly 2nd Amendment argument on a college forum.</p>