UW Madison vs U of MN Twin Cities

bclintonk · February 7, 2009, 1:07am

^ Well, I never said there are more Chinese students in Minnesota than Wisconsin—though there are definitely more Asian or Asian-American students at Minnesota, 9.37% v. 5.45% at Wisconsin. Princeton Review has those numbers:

[Test</a> Prep: GMAT, GRE, LSAT, MCAT, SAT, ACT, and More](<a href=“http://www.princetonreview.com%5DTest”>http://www.princetonreview.com)

But now that you mention it, it does appear there are more students from China at Minnesota than at Wisconsin. At least the University of Minnesota believes so. It claims that its 8,000 alumni from China and the 1,200 Chinese citizens currently studying or teaching at the University of Minnesota are both unmatched “by any University in America.”

[Did</a> You Know? : University of Minnesota, Twin Cities](<a href=“University of Minnesota Twin Cities”>University of Minnesota Twin Cities)

As for your claim that Wisconsin is “more famous” in China, I don’t know how you could ever verify that. But if Minnesota has more alumni in China and currently gets more students from China, it’s rather difficult to believe the claim.

ewho · February 7, 2009, 1:20am

Well, Harvard gets much fewer Chinese, can we say Harvard is less famous in China than Minnesota? Most of the students from China are/were graduate students, especially in the past. Many know that it is harder to get into Wisconsin. And many go there for biology or math, engineering related areas. A lot of them are visiting scholars, not students. Name one famous Chinese Minnesota graduate. I just gave you one from Wisconsin.

tongji · February 7, 2009, 1:27am

I am a Chinese guy, and I got admission email from UM yesterday:). In China, UW is more famous than UM, but only slightly.

bclintonk · February 7, 2009, 1:51am

Really?

Fall 2007 acceptance rate:
University of Wisconsin 56.2%
University of Minnesota 56.8%

I guess that 0.6% margin makes all the difference in the eyes of prospective Chines applicants, eh?

[quote]
Name one famous Chinese Minnesota graduate.

[quote]

Well, look, I’m no China expert, I’ve only been there a couple of times. I have no idea who’s famous there. But I will say that the University of Minnesota Alumni Association boasts more about the business and academic accomplishments of its Chinese alumni than about their being the sons or daughters of the political elite. So maybe that’s a difference?

[University</a> of Minnesota Alumni Association : UMAA CEO: The China Connection](<a href=“Alumni | University of Minnesota”>Alumni | University of Minnesota)

ewho · February 7, 2009, 2:06am

Well, Let me end this conversation. I was the #225 student at Wisconsin from China. Maybe time has changed, but I don’t think Minnesota has ever in my mind better than Wisconsin. Not in the past twenty years, and not what I know of by talking to friends here and there. The best way to check this is to baidu Wisconsin and Minnesota. BTW, all the links are from Minnesota, where are the Wisconsin links?

tongji · February 7, 2009, 3:03am

Most of chinese applicant thinks UW & UM are on the same level. Both of them are dream school of large amount of Chinese guys .

TheDesertFox · February 7, 2009, 3:54am

"
Fall 2007 acceptance rate:
University of Wisconsin 56.2%
University of Minnesota 56.8%
"

I’m not sure acceptance rates tell the whole story. Stats and rankings are bull****, as they can never tell the whole story. I know many people in my high school who graduated with under a say, 3.5,and didn’t bother applying to Wisconsin but applied to Minnesota. Furthermore, having four reciprocity agreements instead of one, Minnesota receives a few thousand more applications than UW-Madison, leading again to a lower acceptance rate as it is forced to only admit a certain number.

When all is said and done though, Wisconsin holds more prestige than Minnesota within the United States. To a lesser degree, I’d expect this to carry overseas. Rankings or not, when I’m visiting family in Texas or more often California and I tell people “I went to UW-Madison,” they automatically know that I must be smart. Minnesota just doesn’t have that cultural je nai sais quio. To most people, they have no opinion. They may deduce it is a good university, but it doesn’t “carry” that reputation the way Wisconsin does.

GoBlue81 · February 7, 2009, 1:25pm

There’s a bit of exaggeration in that article. Several US universities have much longer history in China (e.g., Yale, Michigan) and likely have more than 8,000 alumni.

According to this - [UM</a> - China Inititiatives for the 21st Century](<a href=“http://www.ii.umich.edu/um-china/index.htm]UM”>http://www.ii.umich.edu/um-china/index.htm) … there are currently 876 Chinese students studying at UM. On top of that, there are 318 visiting Chinese faculty and scholars on campus. That adds up to 1,194, plus at least a couple hundreds or more full time faculty originally from China. “No other university in America can match either number” … How would they know that?

“A recent survey conducted in China, for example, rated the Carlson School of Management’s MBA program for Chinese business executives as the top such program in the United States.” They are referring to the China Executive MBA program offered in partnership with Lingnan University, one of the top business schools in southern China. Graduates earn a joint EMBA degree from Lingnan and Minnesota and get to come to Minneapolis for commencement. I’m not aware of other US university offering similar programs in China. The Carlson/Lingnan CHEMBA program is highly coveted in China … but to call it “the top such program in the United States” is deceiving. Btw, the Kellogg-HKUST EMBA offered in partnership between Northwestern and Hong Kong University of Science & Technology is a much more acclaimed program of this kind.

TheDesertFox · February 7, 2009, 4:43pm

Any idea of Madison has thought of something like that? Sounds like a real good way to spread brand visibility in an important country.

bclintonk · February 7, 2009, 5:34pm

There’s no question that in the past—indeed until quite recently—Wisconsin was more selective than Minnesota. But Minnesota’s selectivity has rocketed upward over the past several admissions cycles and is now coming very close to Wisconsin’s.

I’m not even saying that overall Minnesota is as good as Wisconsin right now. I’d grant that in some areas Wisconsin has an edge, in other areas they’re about even, and in some areas Minnesota has the advantage, but overall Wisconsin’s still got a slight lead. You need to pick your spots, though, because Wisconsin isn’t stronger in all aspects.

But the point is, Minnesota’s been rapidly closing the gap in many, many areas, and they’re not nearly so far apart as they once were. There’s a kind of comfortable complacency to the Wisconsin attitude about all this; “Oh, we know we’re better, we’ve always been better, OUR competition is Michigan, not Minnesota.” When in fact Minnesota is poised to give them a real run for their money. Anybody notice that Minnesota jumped 11 places in the US News rankings in a single year, from 2008 to 2009? This is no accident; it reflects things like rapid advances in selectivity, to the point that the kid with the sub-3.5 GPA who just a few years ago was pretty much a shoo-in for admission to Minnesota is now more likely to get a deferral or a rejection letter. I hear this all the time from Minnesota alums: “Geez, back in my day anyone could go to the U. But now my kid can’t get in, and I don’t think I could have gotten in with these new more selective admissions standards.”

And in terms of value, Minnesota is going to be looking more and more attractive to OOS students who look at that $7K/year difference in the price tag between the two schools and wonder if any slight reputational advantage enjoyed by Wisconsin, arguably based more on the past than on present-day reality, is really worth $28K more in debt by the time s/he’s through urdergrad. I’m not knocking Wisconsin; it’s still an excellent school and I wish I could convince my own D to put it on her “safety” list (no luck so far). But my point is, the difference between Wisconsin and Minnesota is not nearly so great as in the past, and in my judgment the gap is shrinking rapidly, to the point that it can be a perfectly reasonable and sound choice, and for many people a highly cost-effective one, to choose Minnesota over Wisconsin.

ewho · February 7, 2009, 9:02pm

I basically agree with you on this post. Indiana recently declared that it is the new Wisconsin. I have no clues what does that mean. Cheaper for OOS at Minnesota is a big plus. But Minnesota is much less well-known for people on the east coast. Wisconsin is a little better because of its sports. Michigan is too expensive. Wisconsin, the once most progressive university in the country, definitely needs to hold itself up. I forgot which year they had a record number of National Merit Scholars (NMS): merely 8 in total out of how many enrolled? The high school near me alone has 20+ NMS this year. Michigan has done much better. Any kid comes to me for suggestions, my direction is always pointing to Michigan.

TheDesertFox · February 7, 2009, 9:45pm

I hear you, ewho. But honestly, I’ve never really gotten rankings. I’ve seen Wisconsin ranked from 16th in the entire world by some Chinese study, to somewhere in the 300’s by some other study. It’s all about criteria, in the end, and you just can’t peg one thing as this or that by measuring data which could really include so many different variables.

I mean, what is it that makes Michigan so great? The classrooms? The professors who actually spend little to no time with the undergraduate students? Or perhaps you could say its the student body themselves, but then again, they wouldn’t be there if Michigan wasn’t supposedly so great in the first place. So what is it that makes a Michigan education so much better than a Wisconsin education, or a Wisconsin education so much better than a Minnesota education, or a Minnesota education so much better than an education at Indiana? It’s all a bunch of bullcrap IMO. If you are in the big ten, sans MSU maybe, it’s the person, not the college.

So, I honestly think the University of Minnesota, Iowa, and others are already as good of a university as Wisconsin. Good in the sense that, it probably won’t make a difference if a bright student goes to one school over the other. Wisconsin seems to have a “pride” that I don’t see in other big ten colleges so much, though. An alumni-supporting-alumni thing that I can really only compare to USC.

But anyway, when it comes to “prestige” and “recognition,” which is mainly what I have been talking about, UW does have significantly more than Minnesota, and even more significantly less than Michigan. I think the CC forums generally show that, as the UW board has 7 times the amount of topics of the Minnesota board (and no, it doesn’t mean that 17-year-olds applying to Minnesota are just “busier”). People across the US know about Wisconsin. The University here often gets shout outs in movies and television shows, and in fact, MTV was filming a reality show about “college life” last fall as well. Maybe that is a bad thing, though.

Also, interesting thought: How does arguably the most economically depressed, hopeless major state in the country (Michigan) support such a prestigious university?

danmam · February 9, 2009, 7:40pm

I’m stuck with this decision too (pending my almost sure rejection from MIT in mid-March). I live in Wisconsin and will be in engineering. I know Wisconsin’s engineering program as a whole is stronger than Minnesota’s, plus Madison is only about an hour and a half from me, while Minnesota is a 6 hour drive, so I’d rather choose Madison. However, Minnesota is offering $11,500 a year for 4 years, Madison is only offering $2250 (valedictorian scholarship) plus whatever other scholarships I win (probably no more than $3000, at the most).

Is it worth it to go to Madison, spend the extra money but get the “prestige” boost? Or is there really no reason to turn down UMN’s scholarship?

Thanks for any advice.

ewho · February 9, 2009, 8:29pm

You can always come back to Madison for graduate school, if money is an issue for you right now. However, if you can afford it, go to Madison. It is worth it if you pay in-state tuition.

danmam · February 9, 2009, 8:42pm

It’s not a matter of affordability. My parents have agreed to pay for half of an in-state education (basically what it costs at Madison for tuition+books+room/board+university meal plan). Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think Madison is probably going to be about $20K this year (including books, room/board, and meal plan), so my parents will chip in $10K a year (no matter where I go). That means if I go to Minnesota I won’t be paying a cent out of my pocket.

Any other suggestions?

noimagination · February 9, 2009, 8:44pm

Answer: U Michigan charges out-of-state students a lot. Also, I think (don’t know) that Michigan sends most of its education money to Ann Arbor. For what it’s worth, only 7% of the school’s general fund comes from the state: [U-M</a> Budget Update - University Budget - Understanding the Budget](<a href=“http://www.vpcomm.umich.edu/budget/understanding.html]U-M”>http://www.vpcomm.umich.edu/budget/understanding.html)

<a href=“http://www.vpcomm.umich.edu/budget/i/gen_fund_aa_allfunds08.jpg[/img]”>http://www.vpcomm.umich.edu/budget/i/gen_fund_aa_allfunds08.jpg

</a>

ewho · February 9, 2009, 9:01pm

I see. Let me put this way, can you picture yourself to live somewhere for $10,000 a year for four years, or you own $40,000 after 4 years for what you have done. It is a lot of money for you to pay back.

TheDesertFox · February 10, 2009, 10:04pm

[Economy</a> Affects Public, Private College Applications](<a href=“FOX 9 Minneapolis-St. Paul”>FOX 9 Minneapolis-St. Paul)

Minnesota is indeed going to be getting more selective. At the same time they are decreasing the size of the freshman class, they just received a record high number of applications (32,000).

While Wisconsin’s applications dipped to 24,200 for a slightly smaller freshman class. Apparently, far less in-state people applied to the school, for a reason no one really knows, while out of state applications went up.

rjkofnovi · February 10, 2009, 10:06pm

So TheDesertFox Michigan isn’t so great and MSU is the worst school in the big ten. Interesting.

GoBlue81 · February 10, 2009, 11:52pm

That’s a myth. In ChE, most of the profs teach two courses a year, usually with one at the undergrad level. Once you are in the dept, you have access to all the profs. Another way to work with a professor is through undergrad research, and you can start in your freshman year. How much time you get to meet the profs is entirely up to you.

UW Madison vs U of MN Twin Cities

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