Absolutely correct. I italicized ‘analysis’ however, as that can help teach critical thinking skills.
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A very common task for a recent college graduate (whether an engineer, a strategic planning associate, a financial analyst, a marketing assistant) is to be handed a very lengthy and dense report of some kind- the Federal Reserve summary of “The state of manufacturing in the upper midwest”, the FAA’s assessment of potential structural deficiencies in an aircraft propulsion system, a research report showing how customers feel about the reduced salt content in the potato chips. So 200-500 pages if you include the appendix with the actual data tabs, and the raw findings plus the regressions.
What’s the newbie’s job? To create an “executive summary”. A 25 page distillation for senior management- either the SVP of Engineering or the Chief Marketing Officer or the CFO or similar.
Who does well with this type of assignment? The young college grad who read Tolstoy (a lengthy and dense piece of writing) and has written about similar works of literature. Who can’t figure out how to start- let alone how to do a credible job? The kid who has been using ChatGPT to draft emails. The data is proprietary, so there are no third party analyses- even with the actual numbers redacted. The text is also proprietary, AND created by someone who is a deep subject matter expert. If you hand in a work based on Google- and not on actually reading the document and summarizing it- your boss and bosses boss will know instantly.
If you’ve ever supervised a young employee who just cannot summarize, analyze, extract the key findings, create a factual narrative out of a “fact pack”– you’ll understand why the constant harping on why “literary analysis is a waste of time” is such a fake trope.
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Again yes and now. My Chat Gpt kid will never be in a role to write executive analysis. I know that 100%. Not everyone doing that kind of tasks even once in a life.
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Let’s have further responses be directed to the OP, please.
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OP, there are many more questions than answers here, and I fully understand that you could be reluctant to go into greater depth about why you think your daughter had the difficulties she had, at the school she attended.
I agree with your tentative assessment that staying the course at the local U is the most likely path, and the lowest-risk path as well.
Is there any chance that this local U participates in the National Student Exchange? If so, that would be a way to give her the growth experience of a semester or a full year away from home (assuming you could fund room & board for that duration) without having to transfer, which as you note may not be worth the trouble.
As others have noted, the NMSF scholarship at U of Tulsa may be worth considering too. It’s a very good school with a lot of very bright kids, but I don’t think it’s excessively intense. Not too large - I don’t think she’d fall through the cracks there. Good STEM.
Have you said what you think she wants to study, within the STEM category? (For example, a math major may have more flexible options available than an engineering or lab-science major.)
If you were a cost-insensitive full-pay family, there are plenty of fine colleges that would be happy to take your money for a kid with an uneven record. But getting the kind of financial aid you need, outside of the Tulsa scholarship (or one of the NMF-scholarship schools like UT-Dallas, Alabama, etc., if she does progress to Finalist) may be pretty tough. Need-aware schools may hesitate to make a financial commitment this big for what they’ll perceive as a higher-risk applicant, and need-blind schools may be too competitive in general. I think you know all this, though.
What does she want? Is she feeling okay about the known-quantity, local option? It doesn’t sound like a bad option at all, if she isn’t miserable at the prospect.
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OP here. thanks again everyone. I’ll do another omnibus reply.
Questbridge is definitely out, since it clearly wouldn’t work, but also she doesn’t want to do ED either, and wants to see options and choose. So no QB nor ED. (Maybe do pure RD, to have another semester of grades to show.)
NMF looks very unlikely, but might as well apply once NMSF comes out, as app looks straightforward. It would be good if she didn’t need to apply to those schools until after we find out about NMF. Can we wait for NMF notification before applying? Note, we get app fee waivers, but we don’t want to waste time and effort when D27 will have schoolwork to focus on.
I realize Meets Full Need (MFN) actually implies a range of possibilities, and it’s the Net Price that actually matters. In practice, a college’s MFN claim does translate into “affordable for us”, but there is a range e.g. Princeton $0, Case $20k, with Endowment being a big factor, correlated with both selectivity and affordability. I’ve worked through dozens of NPCs to look into this, though not for a few years. So “Bill_Marsh” suggested a list of LACs and small unis with acceptance rates in the 20-45% range, and I checked them (most use the College Board NPC which I find reliable, as expected since it’s the same underlying calculator for CSS) and most are affordable! For S24 there was a tidy 10% acceptance rate cutoff, where he was rejected from more selective schools, and accepted at less selective schools. This prompts me to realize I need to take another deep dive into this, to look into a combination of admission chances, affordability, and suitability, because I may have been overlooking some possibilities. But we also need to see how the next few semesters pan out.
All grades are semester grades, no other time intervals. So year long courses get a separate grade for each semester only (and no combined year long grade). So D27 got a D in Fall and a C in Spring for each of two Core Humanities courses. (BTW she took two summer online classes at NotSoNearStateU that cover the material from the D classes, and they transfer to NearbyStateU, and she got A’s, but nevertheless, the bad grades stay permanently on transcript and count towards GPA.) And she got an A in Fall and a C in Spring for a Core STEM class, and I think that one actually is, as “hebegebe” suggested, a case of no longer instantly understanding everything in class, and falling behind, but I think this problem is identifiable and fixable. So CCCDD are 5 semester grades.
We know what’s needed for high school graduation, and the coursework that the in-state colleges require. We have seen the high school transcript (which lists all high school credit from both schools, starting in grade 7), and the UWGPA includes all those courses. Also NonselectiveEasySchool (but not SelectiveHardSchool) had many “block schedule” courses, where a normally full year course is done in a semester, and these contribute to UWGPA the same as full year courses, which helps the average since those were A’s. I can easily imagine colleges doing less favorable calculations and getting 3.5-3.6 instead of 3.8 (though future A’s would bring it back up), but I’m not sure the numbers matter so much as the grades themselves.
We have also seen the NotSoNearStateU college transcript (which grants the DE college credit for both high schools, and is fortunately straight A’s), and we can look up exactly how these count in-state (though no guarantees OOS - probably only get something at lower tier colleges). So we know the courses D27 would be credited for at NearbyStateU, and see how they count towards the BSc degree if she stays there.
It might look weird to some colleges to have an all-DE-Humanities grade 11, but it’s what’s available at the school, and the DE credit will transfer to NearbyStateU to cover a bunch of GenEd credit. It makes sense to optimize planning for NearbyStateU since she is at least 50% likely to end up doing her degree there, maybe even 90% likely, since it seems her chances elsewhere are so slim. So we don’t want to too desperately scramble to salvage chances at elite colleges - we’ll just let the chips fall where they may. BTW, these DE courses are “block schedule”, meaning they each count as equivalent to a 1 year high school course (though 1 semester college credit), and so D27 will end up with more than 4 years credit in each core subject (though colleges may interpret a transcript in their own way). She will have some STEM activity, such as STEM contests. Also, since she has in-state DE credit for just 1st semester Calc, she’ll take the AP Calc BC exam to try to get credit for 1st and 2nd semester (good at many colleges), and we’ll homeschool her the missing material she needs to learn (if she has time). So there’s STEM activity outside of standard coursework.
Our gambit of going for reachy/MFN/affordable colleges worked for S24, but we realize that D27 may have knocked herself out of contention, but she’ll try some anyway just to see, and we’ve got about a year to figure a list. So NearbyStateU might be disappointing compared to what could have been, but it’s acceptable, and D27 is okay with it. On the one hand, it has a high acceptance rate, some students are not academically prepared/serious, want to party, and there’s a notable amount of attrition. On the other hand, D27’s major department has grad students, postdocs, and faculty, doing a wide range of research projects, small and large groups including collaborations with many other universities, so it’s okay for basic/research science. Grad schools understand that lots of people just go to their local uni, though she’ll have to prove herself. (I’d be fine with her switching to Engineering though, like her brother, and getting a job after undergrad, which may be a more secure path.)
The grade 12 plan (and there’s really no alternative) is for D27 to take regular on-campus courses at NearbyStateU. (And yes I realize this is totally different to DE courses in high school that earn college credit.) It would actually be easier to be admitted as a 1st year, than it would be to get permission for a 12th grade to take regular on-campus courses (it’s much rarer than the usual DE), but it’s much better keeping 12th grade status. I believe that in doing so, she can then apply to colleges as a 1st year, not as a transfer, with implication of better FinAid. Is this true?
If she continues at NearbyStateU, she can do 4 year undergrad in “grades 12-15”, rather than “grades 13-16” (just extending grade numbering beyond K-12 as a way of describing timeline), i.e. she’d be effectively getting started with college a year early, but officially starting college at the usual “grade 13”. (She could possibly do BSc and MSc in 5 years “grades 12-16”, using 4 years of FinAid for “grades 13-16”.) It might seem that the 60+ hours of DE from grades 9-11 might shorten the timeline further, but actually it doesn’t for these reasons: Some DE credit doesn’t count towards the degree, and some ends up in a big electives pile in excess of what’s needed, so maybe 45 hours counts, but even that doesn’t shorten the timeline, instead it lightens the load. D27 would still start with the “for majors” versions of the 1st year major classes, and proceed with the major sequence on the standard timeline, albeit shifted a year earlier, so this is not a radical acceleration, just 1 year earlier, or maybe BSc/MSc by the normal time to finish BSc.
For FinAid she needs to be “fulltime” meaning at least 12 hours per semester, and she could finish on time doing only 12 hours, instead of the usual 15+ hours to finish on time if one is not bring in any credit. But for our grade 12 plan, when she’s a high schooler, with no FinAid, and we pay, she could do an even lighter load, say 6-9 hours, (and still finish on schedule). A lighter load gives a chance to test out how she’s going with regular college courses with less risk of problems (because if this doesn’t work we’ve really got problems) (and it costs less).
But since she’d be applying to other colleges during grade 12, would a light courseload look bad on the application (and this would be all her courses - no HS coursework at all in grade 12)?
Her foreign language was done “block schedule”, 4 years credit from 4 semesters, and colleges may not count it that way, so should she take an AP exam to verify the level, and get credit from the college?
One more question: should she do any Early Action apps, Rolling Admissions, or anything at all in Fall, if not absolutely necessary? It could be good to focus on school in the Fall, and do college apps in the winter break. There is the factor of “getting distance away from grade 10” and with RD apps she can include results from Fall grad 12 (which would be on-campus courses at NearbyStateU), so 3 semesters of results, the 3rd being “real college” (rather than DE whose quality may be questioned by elite colleges) - and these would need to be straight A’s to have any chance of this working, which is obviously not guaranteed. On the other hand, a few EA apps (and there aren’t that many affordable/MFN schools) that give results by December could be a way of “testing the waters”, maybe getting a good result and/or calibrating the RD round plan. (BTW S24 did a couple of summer courses at NearbyStateU, and transferred the credit back to his selective college, so that’s evidence that more elite colleges could regard D27’s (Fall 2026) coursework at NearbyStateU as having a certain level of rigor.)
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A few thoughts - many meets need schools are need aware and may turn you down based on the amount of need that you have. Nothing you can do about it but it is a thing.
As far as when to apply, non selective schools usually have a May 1 cutoff but check. Selective or semi selective publics will often fill most their class EA so you’d want to apply by then. Budget wise, I’m not sure these will be in your consideration set though.
Some are rolling or even instant or near instant response. .
No classes in 12th grade would be a gap year - so you’d have met the hs graduation requirements by then ?
You should learn about the Tulsa NMSF. See below. Big name. Great price. But you’ve got to get in.
- Students must have all required application materials for admission submitted to The University of Tulsa no later than Feb. 1 for the fall entry term.*
- Students must make an official campus visit by Feb. 1.*
- Students must provide two letters of recommendation, one academic and one non-academic, submitted by the recommender by Feb. 1 via Common App or to apply@utulsa.edu. The Common App School Report Form does not satisfy this requirement.*
- Applicants are required to attend an on-campus, in-person National Merit Semifinalist interview by Feb. 1.*
- Students must designate The University of Tulsa as their first choice school with the National Merit Corporation by the final deadline set by National Merit.
- Students must commit to The University of Tulsa by submitting their Intent to Enroll form no later than May 1, the National Decision Deadline.
*Students applying Early Decision or Early Action I need to have these items completed by Nov. 1.
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(Double post.)
The only affordable (via need-aid) OOS publics are UVa and UNC-CH. Am I right to assume that D27 is eliminated from contention from these? (Might as well ask.)
There is a lower tier of publics that may be affordable instead via “look-up-table merit aid”, but I don’t know that we’d choose any over NearbyStateU.
We’d probably put Tulsa on the list, though I’m not sure about smaller places when it comes to research activity (same with LACs).
I don’t think anyone knows - the thread is very confusing.
That’s why I said earlier, if she’s interested and if they’re right for her:
- Apply to selective (that meet your budget) - UNC and UVA will include loans
- Apply to non or less selective that meet your budget
- Apply to Tulsa (NMSF) and others if NMF.
Why not cover all bases?
But make sure the schools are right for your student. Just because a school is more selective or higher ranked doesn’t mean it’s right for a student.
I do know this - if you don’t apply, you’re not getting in.
Research - it’s everywhere - you don’t need a big public to do research. My kid’s regional public had lots of research. These schools are all loaded with top PhD profs. And if you look at PhD feeders, there’s a ton of small schools.
You’re on a budget. That needs to drive your decision so if a major and leading school wants to pay for you to go there (pay most for you), you need to consider it. You can’t afford not to.
Your student won’t be devoid of research opportunities no matter where they go - but you do need to raise your hand.
Yes, for selective schools. I’m still not clear how many HS/DE English classes she will have thru 12th. She ideally needs 5 core courses for each semester of 12th, again, for selective schools.
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In fairness, you came here asking which options should be eliminated based upon some bad alphabet grades and 100+ posts later - you are still trying to get the same question answered. The truth is that you (with the help from an old post) have trickled out pertinent information allowing people to get closer to understanding your situation, but never allowing people to quite get there. I think this has been purposeful and you are just looking for someone to say that there is a chance at some school that you really want to say yes.
Maybe your post is no different from some other chance me threads, but there is something about yours that offers just enough information to let people fill in the gaps with their imagination in an effort to think they might be able to help.
While I wish UVA or UNC to happen for your student, I am doubtful. I am doubtful because you would be much more forthright with information if you wanted people to use experience and knowledge to be helpful.
IMO you have been effective at getting people to commit education malpractice, and since that has been your unstated goal (not as bad as it sounds of course), the answer needs to be that getting into UVA or UNC seems unlikely. You and I both know that schools like that will pin you down by forcing out facts, and if those facts were helpful to your situation, you would have shared them many posts ago.
I really do hope it all works out for your student.
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Are you, by any chance, not based in the US?
Or are you international applicants?
IIRC, this student was at the selective public for only one semester. So…did she finish these courses at the easier for her virtual school?
If your find some colleges that have rolling admissions or early action where she has a good chance of acceptance with her current grades, I
Would say yes to applying rolling or EA. If not, perhaps waiting for the first semester senior year grades might be better.
But I’m guessing there are some rolling admission schools that would work. Remind me again…what is your maximum price point? A number of good suggestions have been made upstream for colleges that are not extremely costly to begin with. Are any of those affordable?
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Yes, it’s true. The best financial aid goes to freshman applicants, and often in terms of merit freshmen are the only ones who get significant scholarships.
Although she doesn’t need 5 courses, she needs 3-4 courses/12 credits per semester. 4 courses (or 3 with labs, or a mix) would match a typical block schedule and be considered the minimum needed.
She can take the AP exam this year (I think she can still register) and take a more advanced class next year to show both content&skill mastery and willingness to challenge herself. It will matter to the MFN colleges as an example of going beyond box checking an education. In addition, AP is the first level where skill&content mastery begins to matter (FL 1-3 is to math a bit like arithmetics, where 4 is algebra/geometry and AP algebra2 or precalculus. AP is only B1, the independence threshold. An attempt at going beyond that for the challenge would be appreciated by MFN colleges.)
A lot of public universities and Honors colleges have Priority/Honors deadlines that she can’t miss for best shot at scholarships.
Some fill their class by that deadline.
Some with Rolling Admissions become more selective the further after August you apply.
In all other cases, RD applications would seem the wisest. These first semester grades will matter, first together with this year’s for the distance to the Sophomore grades, second for the record of high quality performance in a respected college environment they specifically provide.
A couple EA applications she works on during the summer would also be a way to iron out the wrinkles.
Can she/has she joined a research lab at NearbyStateU?
Can you afford to enroll her in ONE STEM/Math class at NearbyStateU Spring semester?
Does she have a job (1/excellent EC, not that common nowadays for HS students applying to MFN colleges; 2/ can help with costs of 1 class at NearbyStateU.)
[quote=]
I’m not sure about smaller places when it comes to research activity (same with LACs).
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Top LACs are top PHD feeders because the professors are hired, in part, for their ability to include undergraduates into their research.
An older list
Use the per Capita table
i don’t think access to research will be a problem. But your D needs to be MOTIVATED to seek it out everywhere and anywhere. Some colleges have extensive databases listing all research opportunities; some colleges are more ad hoc and a professor will state at the end of class “Anyone with expertise in MatLab or similar should come and talk to me about a research project I’m leading which just got funding and we need a statistical analyst”. And some colleges are just kids showing up at office hours to ask “I’m loving your genetics class- do you need me in your lab?”.
Research will be everywhere and anywhere. But your kid needs to actually WANT to do it (many parents mistakenly believe that it’s a high priority for their college kid, and often they are wrong) AND needs to understand that not every kid is qualified for every role in a professor’s lab. If your kid has not taken chemistry with lab (face-to-face, not a virtual chem class) the “entry level” role in research is going to be focused on technique and learning protocols, not finding a cure for pancreatic cancer.
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I’ll add that even “grunt work”, “learning protocols” is hugely useful: it shows the PI the student is reliable, can follow directions, is precise - not always a given, can be learned; it’s a good basis to give progressively more complex tasks that can be successfully completed; it teaches the student not to try to run before they can walk and creates “automatisms” that will come in handy in any lab.
Registering for any new science class at NearbyStateU for Spring semester and trying to find a position (as anything !) in a lab would be very useful to this student.
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Emphasizing your point about LAC’s providing research for undergrads, in my experience, this is true.
People have a misconception that students at LAC’s can’t do research. This couldn’t be more wrong. I know many kids who have attended LACs and many of them did research in the summers. My kid was one of them. She applied for and received a grant which covered her costs to live in a different state for a summer and do research at a university lab. She had college friends who did the same.
In addition, she was offered a summer research position on campus by one of her professors, in which her costs would have been covered.
Kids at LACs aren’t competing with grad students. They know their profs and have good study habits. Profs have colleagues who reach out too, looking for students to assist in their research. And to emphasize @blossom ‘s point, like any university, your kid will need to seek out the opportunity.
I’m confused by all this. Are you saying your D will have all credits needed to graduate from high school by the end of her junior year? That your D is simply going to take college courses for something to do as an alternative to grade 12? Or are you talking about concurrent enrollment? If she is taking courses for something to do, and wants to be considered a freshman for college app purposes, then she might need to take those classes on an audit basis.
This is really complicated, and I feel you are not hearing what you want to hear. If D can graduate, then maybe she does that. She can spend a gap year doing something really impactful and meaningful to her, maybe earn money for a year to help with costs, then apply for the next cycle. Also, you said she took the ACT in 7th grade, but that will not be a score she can submit. Typically, colleges want a test score taken in the last five years, or from when they are in high school. It depends on the college. She should probably plan to take that again.
I get a sense that for whatever reason, your Ds schooling has been rushed, as if there is some matter of urgency. But given what happened in 10th grade, maybe just slow it all down and let her mature. Maybe she is a genius. It doesn’t mean she is ready for college though.
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OP / if you did a match me and said here’s my UW GPA
Here’s the courses I’ve taken in English, math, social science, foreign language and lab science plus any non lab science.
We know you had some Cs and Ds. If you said what they were in…..
And you provided a budget - it sounds like less than $20k.
If you then listed your ECs - so we could get a sense of you.
You’ve created this whole thing where you don’t want to be identified - no one can or will do so.
You want answers to a question you haven’t clearly stated which is why I say cover all bases in selectivity because I don’t have a clue about this overall student after all these posts.
Part of me thinks that her experience has been so wild, and in some ways defeating, that maybe the local state U where she is might be a better choice than a selective school.
On the other hand, I wonder if living at home has caused a stress issue. Some do better away. She’s rushed so fast maybe she emotionally shut down if she’s been overly pressured (I don’t know). Has she had a chance to be a kid ?
Bottom line - everyone is just grasping at straws until you create a more coherent and transparent post.
This entire thread leaves one to throw a dart against a board and hope they are providing worthy info. But no one really knows.
Please be transparent if you want well defined feedback.
Thanks
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Of course and thank you for pointing that out.
The “grunt work” is the foundation of all successful collaborations. Nobody advances without a thorough background. Which is why I’m cautioning the OP- if the kid has not taken a real lab class with a face-to-face teacher, the fear that there won’t be enough “research” at a small college is misguided. Whether it’s a Psych lab, Anthro lab, Art restoration/identification, Mech E. lab, etc– the kid will be learning the blocking and tackling before getting to the “cool” stuff. And the learning won’t be from the leader. The lab techs (hourly employees, often making minimum wage) will be teaching the animal protocols; the lab supervisor (not an academic but a full time employee) will be teaching “here’s how we log results. Here’s the data entry system. This is what you do if you input an erroneous number”.
And a member of the janitorial staff may be teaching the most important lessons of all- safety. “You don’t store your lunch in this refrigerator- you use the one down the hall. You change from your street shoes into steel toed shoes in this combined locker/employee break/lunch room. Here’s where we keep the extra hair nets and you must keep one on at all times once you open the alarmed door. Joanne is the lab safety officer, and when she gives an evacuation order you do not stop to get your backpack- you head for the blinking red light and leave the building”. Etc.
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