Wake Forest Drops Requirement for SAT or ACT

<p>see my last post for the economic disparity…</p>

<p>“Considering that recommendations depend as much on a student’s desire…” </p>

<p>you cant succeed in college or in life without desire, so thats a good thing if it weeds out the kids not dedicated to success</p>

<p>“considering that college admissions boards don’t see you for 4 years in high school, but just a small packet of information about those four years”</p>

<p>the sat is a much smaller packet. and it doesnt take skill in science, history, or foreign language into account, nor do they tell you the kinds of questions the student struggled with or send out the essays</p>

<p>“considering that a rich kid can have Harvard graduates write his essay for him”</p>

<p>im from a very affluent family and community and i dont know anyone who that applies to, thats a ridiculous stereotype and im sure you know that</p>

<p>“will almost certainly have it edited in a superior fashion than a poor kid”</p>

<p>thats what english teachers are for</p>

<p>" considering that intelligence does not necessarily result in good grades"</p>

<p>1) then it also would not necessarily result in good test scores
2) if you dont have the skills and/or desire necessary to be successful in high school how on earth can you expect to convince anyone you will be in college</p>

<p>well thats true… i dont know how you expect me to force you to believe it, but i suppose you can contact usc if youd like. i mean honestly, why would i possibly care enough to lie?</p>

<p>"“Considering that recommendations depend as much on a student’s desire…”</p>

<p>you cant succeed in college or in life without desire, so thats a good thing if it weeds out the kids not dedicated to success"</p>

<p>Yay for selective quoting!</p>

<p>“the sat is a much smaller packet. and it doesnt take skill in science, history, or foreign language into account, nor do they tell you the kinds of questions the student struggled with or send out the essay.”</p>

<p>Uh, that’s not what you were talking about. In post #196, you were talking about intelligence. Now you’re talking about skill in science, history, or foreign language. Stop shifting the goalposts to suit your rapidly crumbling ‘argument.’</p>

<p>“im from a very affluent family and community and i dont know anyone who that applies to, thats a ridiculous stereotype and im sure you know that”
<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/02/nyregion/02essay.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/02/nyregion/02essay.html&lt;/a&gt;
[Controversy</a> Over College Application Essay Sites](<a href=“Controversy Over College Application Essay Sites”>Controversy Over College Application Essay Sites)
I can link you to 10 more articles about this phenomenon. That’s besides the point though. Most rich kids don’t cheat (or so I hope.) They have the opportunity to do it, though, which they do not on the SAT (or at least it is much more difficult.)</p>

<p>“thats what english teachers are for”</p>

<p>Because the English teacher at Podunk High is likely to be as good as the English teacher at Phillips-Andover or have as much time to edit it. Okay, sure…</p>

<p>“1) then it also would not necessarily result in good test scores
2) if you dont have the skills and/or desire necessary to be successful in high school how on earth can you expect to convince anyone you will be in college”</p>

<p>1) Yes, except peer-reviewed research shows that SAT scores correlates very well with IQ. So nice try, but no.
2) If you would try reading anything I said in this thread, you wouldn’t be asking that question. </p>

<p>“well thats true… i dont know how you expect me to force you to believe it, but i suppose you can contact usc if youd like.”</p>

<p>You can’t. But if you’re actually trying to make a serious argument so you’re not laughed at, you’d want to cite some data, like this:</p>

<p>[Coaching</a> and the SAT I](<a href=“http://professionals.collegeboard.com/data-reports-research/cb/coaching-and-sat]Coaching”>Higher Education Professionals | College Board)</p>

<p>But anecdotes that nobody believes are good too!</p>

<p>lol i just looked and saw ur a uc boy… im from southern california and it now all makes sense… all u uc system kids are all about systemizing everything so it can be neatly categorized… good luck in classes with 600 other people</p>

<p>besides that, nothing youre saying makes sense… its clear that your entire intent is to attack me rather than what im saying</p>

<p>1) why dont u consider skill in science or history to represent intelligence?
2) the whole job of admissions counselors is to know the schools theyre reviewings reputations so theyd take the podunk factor into account
3) rather than avoiding my question, why dont u actually answer it
4) i guess ill reiterate since you again managed to avoid answering my question- why on earth would i consider this subject to be important enough to make up a story for?</p>

<p>Yes, I like to systematize - seeing and creating some semblance of order in the universe is a beautiful endeavor. In fact, it is the end goal of almost every academic pursuit - whether it be philosophy, physics, or history. But I fail to see how attending a world-renown research university (probably one of the five most recognizable institutions worldwide) for tuition that is less than a fourth of the tuition at a private liberal arts college is a product of that desire to systematize.</p>

<p>If what I am saying does not make sense, perhaps you ought to work on your reading comprehension.</p>

<p>‘1) why dont u consider skill in science or history to represent intelligence?’</p>

<p>First, ‘science’ is such a vague term as to render itself meaningless. But to answer your question, skills can be, and, by definition are, learned (e.g. how to balance an equation or interpret a ancient Chinese document), while intelligence is not something you learn. Skills are very well and good - they ought to be taken into account with high school grades and tests like the SAT-II and APs. They are distinct from intelligence, however. The facets of intelligence that account for easy development of skill in history and science are represented on IQ tests (and thus, per the Frey/Detterman study, the SAT.)</p>

<p>“the whole job of admissions counselors is to know the schools theyre reviewings reputations so theyd take the podunk factor into account”</p>

<p>That’s an utterly ridiculous, and unnecessary, I may add, expectation to have of admissions counselors. It’s one thing if you’re a huge university that receives tens of thousands of applications a year, most from a single state, like the University of California does. In that case, it is probably possible to develop a strong correlation between grades from students from a particular school and the college GPA its alumni receive. But what happens in the case of a small liberal arts college that only gets a single student from a school a year (or has never had an applicant from the school)? Or what happens in the case of the student who attends a high school that gives out A’s for being sentient, but has a very high GPA that he would have received had he even gone to the most rigorous prep school in the nation, but is assumed to be less worthy because of the lax academic character of his high school? The point in both these examples is that there is no replacement for nationally-administered standardized tests, whether they be curriculum, or intelligence-based, in determining academic success and potential. </p>

<p>‘3) rather than avoiding my question, why dont u actually answer it’
What question am I not answering?</p>

<p>“4) i guess ill reiterate since you again managed to avoid answering my question- why on earth would i consider this subject to be important enough to make up a story for?”</p>

<p>You want to prove a point and there is no downside to lying, perhaps. I have better things to do than speculate on the motivations of some guy on an internet forum. Either way, I don’t actually care if what you say happened or didn’t - an anecdote proves nothing; scholarly studies like the one I cited that say SAT coaching does little do prove things. Now go play in the sandbox with the rest of the children who fail to understand the difference between an anecdote and data.</p>

<p>“Now go play in the sandbox with the rest of the children who fail to understand the difference between an anecdote and data.”</p>

<p>if youre going to talk to me like that then i see no reason in trying to have an intelligent conversation with you</p>

<p>No, that’s not true. You see no reason in talking to me because you can’t respond to any of the arguments I made. Which is totally fine…</p>

<p>theres this thing called the high road. youre not going to goad me into continuing a pointless conversatoin by trying to make me look or feel stupid… im not that insecure</p>

<p>Cornell doesn’t require the ACT/SAT tests for Transfer students.
In other words if you are transferring into Cornell, and have never taken one of these tests they waive the requirement.</p>

<p>I am thrilled that wake forest is making SAT submission optional, because although I am number 1 in my class and involved in numerous activities, I know my chances for admission to elite colleges will be limited by my SAT scores. I don’t think that a test 4 hrs long on some random saturday should carry such weight in deciding my future. Everyone who posts and responds to my questions on CC has nothing to say except that my scores are too low, which is really disheartening because of the work I’ve put into high school over the course of 4 years. I know for a fact I will thrive in college, and anyone who posts saying that if a student doesn’t have the SAT scores in the range for a certain college, then maybe they shouldn’t be there, is frankly insulting. Whether someone gets a 1000 or a 2400 on their SATs I honestly don’t think it dictates at all how someone will preform in the classroom, and to all those who say it levels the playing field amongst high schools, for some are clearly more arduous than others, I understand your arguement. However, I know school systems where students begin taking the SATs in middle school, and take them every year, twice a year, so by the time they have applied to college they have about 13 sets of scores to choose from. If they’ve had the practice of 13 SATs of course their scores are likely to be higher than someone who only took the test one or two times. So the test alone really does not equally compare students, especially when some pay thousands of dollars on prep courses. I care about my scores just as much as the next student and I did take a prep course offered at my school, but in all honesty, I don’t think I’d ever pay $1,000 to prepare for a test, even if it meant I’d gain admission to Harvard or Yale. Some people just don’t test well, but are amazing students, and others are trained in testing and could care less about the work they put into a class. Why should the students who have the highest scores be selected to recieve the “big” envelope when in actuality a portion of them do just whats required to get by in the classroom? If you’ve received high scores, congratulations, I’m not saying you don’t deserve them. My only point is that there are so many students who are amazing, but just don’t have the same luck when taking the SATs, and I don’t feel that that should limit their college options.</p>

<p>Does Wake Forest require SAT 2s? If not is it strongly recomended?</p>

<p>No they do not. I can’t imagine they would hurt you, but unless you have to take SAT 2’s for other schools, I would not take them.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Hmmm… let’s see.</p>

<p>USNWR 2007: #30
USNWR 2008: #30

  • wake announces SAT Optional Policy *
    USNWR 2009: #29
    USNWR 2010: #28
    USNWR 2011: #25</p>

<p>Yep aworldapart, I’d say you nailed that one. Shall we start calling you NostradamusII?</p>

<p>I was curious how the change affected # of applications, Selectivity and Yield. That is shown here:</p>

<p>Year …/… # App …/… # Acc …/… % Acc …/… # Enrol …/… Yield
2006 …/… 7,341 …/… 3,130 …/… 43% …/… 1,125 …/… 36%
2007 …/… 7,177 …/… 3,041 …/… 42% …/… 1,124 …/… 37%</p>

<ul>
<li>SAT optional Policy announced *</li>
</ul>

<p>2008 …/… 9,050 …/… 3,473 …/… 38% …/… 1,202 …/… 35%
2009 …/… 10,553 …/… 3,959 …/… 38% …/… 1,200 …/… 30%
2010 – not yet published in CDS.</p>

<p>The # of Apps did go up about 45% between 2007 and 2009, which is a little misleading because I think applications to all Top 30 schools went up about 30% in the same timeframe. Nonetheless, the Selectivity only went from 42% to 38%, not much of a change and just about in line with Selectivity increases at all Top 30 schools.</p>

<p>Regarding SAT performance, the CDS shows the same 25/75 CR+M average of 1320 for 2007, 2008, and 2009 entering classes. Rather than increasing SAT scores by the new policy, since WFU reports the SAT of all students, including those not using the SAT for admissions decisions, the SAT has remained constant whereas at most Top 30 Universities, SAT scores have increased 5-10 points over that two year period.</p>

<p>Oops… I made an error, and a rather significant one. It took so long for the CDS from 2009-2010 to load that I got the Wake SAT numbers from collegedata.com… big mistake, they appear to be from 2008.</p>

<p>The Wake Forest Common Data Set for 2009-2010 shows incoming freshmen had a big drop in 25/75 ave. CR+M scores down to from 1320 to 1285. I’m surprised such a big drop has not been reported, or I just missed it. I suppose this could have been predicted when applicants with lower SAT scores apply without showing those scores. <a href=“Home - Office of Institutional Research”>Home - Office of Institutional Research;

<p>OK, so what happened to GPA? Interestingly, the % of enrolled students in the top 10% of their HS graduating class increased significantly for 2009, as follows:</p>

<p>2007: 64%
2008: 64%
2009: 75%</p>

<p>It only makes sense that if SAT is reduced in importance, something must fill its void. It appears at quick glance that GPA has become proportionately more important as the SATs have become less important in WFU admissions.</p>

<p>This is REALLY interesting. I wonder how this new paradigm for student admission is playing out in the classroom… is there a degradation, an improvement? I wonder what the faculty has noticed??? It also appears that applicants with lower SAT scores who are not reporting them are not being penalized within WFU admissions.</p>

<p>USNWR 2007: #30
USNWR 2008: #30

  • wake announces SAT Optional Policy *
    USNWR 2009: #29
    USNWR 2010: #28
    USNWR 2011: #25
    USNWR 2014: #23
    Wooh, I think Wake should be definitely more well known.</p>

All the longitudinal studies indicate that the most accurate predictor of performance in college/university is the high school transcript NOT the standardized test score. I would assume based on the data that the if WFU is relying more on the GPA they will find an increase in the quality of the student body.They are rewarding the hard working student not just those that perform on a given saturday morning for 3 hours

I think this is a pretty cool idea. Standardized test for me are exceedingly hard due to the fact hat i am blind in my right eye and over 50% in y left and its 100% uncorrectable and even with the extra time that i get i still find my self struggling to read the text provided. I have maintained a high GPA on a 7 point scale. But when i take the SAT/ACT it doesn’t reflect my true knowledge. So to me this is a really great idea.

@trentondavis You can find a list of test optional schools at fairtest.org. Good Luck!

@Barbie4 I have tried multiple different types of accommodations. during the test my eyes will became very strained or even just to tired to continue. I find myself wasting time by having to stop periodically during the test.