Wake Forest Drops Requirement for SAT or ACT

Colleges & Universities Wake Forest University
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<p>I’m looking at Providence College in RI (I’m an in-stater…not that it matters for a private school…) which dropped their SAT requirement a year ago. The reason they gave for doing so was to ‘increase diversity’ and apparently it worked; this year’s freshmen class was something crazy like 1.5x as many minority students.</p>

<p>I was upset to see the SAT requirement go because it definitely compensated for my low-ish GPA…does anyone know how much weight they’ll give to a strong SAT score at schools with SAT-optional apps?</p>

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<p>Mickey … you are deluded if you think SATs will compensate for poor classroom performance @ Wake. ONLY if your profile fits a specific “need” of the U.</p>

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<p>By dropping the SAT, schools now rely on GPA, and melanin levels alone to fill their freshman class. Wake may not drop in the rankings, but to many people out there, they are now merely another open enrollment school. Its sad really.</p>

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<p>bluebayou: “No, I woud not assume anything about the math level of the two girls bcos the first girl will not submit the test, so I would not see it (“gpa/class rank”).” </p>

<p>Level of math course and grade indicate capability. In this case, the admissions officer would have to be familiar with the two schools to read between the lines. Class rank - possibly unranked. GPA - somewhat misleading. And what makes you believe the first girl will not submit her SAT scores? Is it because the scores are low? Is it your assumption then that no scores = low scores? My guess is that you are probably right, but what exactly constitues a low score? Below 1800? My d’s friend had in the 1300s out of 2400.<br>

bluebayou: EVERY former admissions person who has written a book (see Cohen, Hernandez et al) makes it quite clear that high school competitiveness IS taken into account. Moreover, being a Val at a 500 student HS is much better than being a VAl in a graduating class of 50.</p>

<p>Being Val at any school is to be lauded.  But number of students in the graduating class has absolutely nothing to do with ability.  You could take the Val from a class of 500, place them into a class of 50 and have them be number 50 depending on the school.  One school in this city has approximately 80% National Merit students in a graduating class of 150 and an average SAT of 1450.  The school in my neighborhood has about 6 (total) NMSF out of 900 students and an average SAT of 1050 (oops, I'm using standardized info again), and it is nowhere near the bottom rung of hs in the city.

bluebayou: Wake Forest NEVER said it would NOT “look” at standardized test scores. Submit 'em if you want Admissions to look at 'em. But why automatically exclude the <1800 SAT who also just happens to have, say, three AP 5’s, in the tough subjects?

Did WF automatically exclude the student w/those scores previously? Shame on them. I would have thought that the holistic approach where the SAT and the three APs were both looked at to determine ability would have served better. ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` </p>

<p>bluebayou:Yes, I have heard of this happening in Texas schools, and perhaps elsewhere; everyone above a 4.0 w = Val. But, frankly, it is not that difficult to discern the differences bcos that weighted gpa has a max possible. So, a 4.5 trumps a 4.1 even tho they are both technically Vals.</p>

<p>Must be harder than that to determine, especially as one works down to #10 (actually #150 or so). I only say that because I actually heard the Notre Dame admissions officer remark on the difficulty of figuring out class rank in the large TX schools and I assume he knows the difficulty since he has to do it.</p>

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<p>Turtle – your first sentence is incredibly offensive, and simply not true.</p>

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<p>Agreed completely CBBB-</p>

<p>Why is it so difficult to understand the fact that Wake is NOT PROHIBITING standardized test score submission? As has been stated hundreds of times on this board, many, in fact most applicants will continue to submit scores, and all scores will be considered for admission. Wake never has been and never will be an “open enrollment school”; in fact, the change will make it more challenging to get in, considering the “new” importance placed on interviews, essays, etc.</p>

<p>Whether mom’s and dad’s who dote over their child’s 1550 like it or not, colleges play by their own rules, not those conceived by applicants which might better their chances.</p>

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<p>Why is it so difficult to understand that some people believe that standardized test scores are a better indicator of the qualities desired in a student body than essays (which can be heavily edited or even straight up written by others) or grades (which vary greatly depending on the culture of the school) or community service (which can often be performed very well by a person who has no academic aptitude)? Why is it so difficult to understand that the further devaluation of standardized test scores is not seen as a universal good? </p>

<p>“Wake is not prohibiting standardized test score submission” is such a copout. It is obvious that Wake is doing one of the following: they are either seeking to decrease their admission rate by encouraging individuals with low scores to apply, signaling the lack of regard their admission process already has for standardized test scores, or signaling a pending devaluation of standardized test scores in their admissions process. If it is the first one, than nothing is changing. If it is one of the latter two, or both of them, then people who believe in the necessity for standardized test scores are obviously disappointed by Wake’s admissions process and the student body it will likely yield. </p>

<p>Sure, it may be more challenging to get in, but the primary goal of an admissions process ought not be to make it difficult on the applicant (unless it is a really weird college like UofC, where the application itself causes some much-needed introspection.) The goal ought to select the most academically capable class possible. </p>

<p>Yes, TAce, colleges do play by their own rules. What’s your point? Just because somebody does something does not make it right.</p>

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<p>As a splitter such as was described here (extremely high humanities scores, relatively poor math performance) in terms of both grades and standardized test scores, I think there is a much superior solution here. Colleges, in doing holistic review should overlook weaknesses if the strengths are truly extraordinary, rather than looking for well-roundedness, when it comes at the expense of unusually talented students. To oversimplify it somewhat, take the 800M/500V kid who shows unusual aptitude in math and science, rather than the 700V/700M kid who is very good in both fields but shows no unusual talent in either.</p>

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<p>"Why is it so difficult to understand the fact that Wake is NOT PROHIBITING standardized test score submission? As has been stated hundreds of times on this board, many, in fact most applicants will continue to submit scores, and all scores will be considered for admission. Wake never has been and never will be an “open enrollment school”; in fact, the change will make it more challenging to get in, considering the “new” importance placed on interviews, essays, etc.</p>

<p>Whether mom’s and dad’s who dote over their child’s 1550 like it or not, colleges play by their own rules, not those conceived by applicants which might better their chances."</p>

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<h2>I agree 1000%. Making the scores optional would make admission to Wake more intensive and would put a larger emphasis on other aspects of a candidate’s record. </h2>

<p>“they are either seeking to decrease their admission rate by encouraging individuals with low scores to apply”</p>

<p>That’s deplorable, however, in a way could be possible. I still believe the policy is simply to increase the minority population.</p>

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<p>Keep in mind that Wake Forest may not just be striving for diversity. It can also gain significant ground in the rankings by not seeing the low scores in its applicant pool.</p>

<p>Check out this blog post on the subject:</p>

<p>[Wake</a> Forest Gets the Best of Both Worlds](<a href=“http://www.omniaceducation.com/blog/?p=6]Wake”>http://www.omniaceducation.com/blog/?p=6)</p>

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<p>That blogger is a good example of somebody whose SAT verbal score a college would benefit from knowing. If he actually read the PR he linked to, he’d know:</p>

<p>“Like other universities, Wake Forest is asked to provide standardized test score data to outside agencies. For this data to be accurate, Wake Forest will ask students who chose not to submit scores during the admissions process to provide them after they are accepted and before they enroll at Wake Forest.”</p>

<p>So nice try there ‘Omniac’, but try reading next time.</p>

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<p>Yes, that’s a good point. Those outside agencies will try to verify those scores. But a few things will happen.</p>

<p>1) Some students won’t have scores at all.</p>

<p>2) Some students will refuse to submit.</p>

<p>If even 10% of the low scoring students go away, it significantly alters Wake Forest’s profile in the coming years. The point still stands.</p>

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<p>I did really, really well on the SAT. And I didn’t study or take a prep course or anything. I was just good at it.</p>

<p>I got into a top 15 university, and I’m attending that university now. My test scores indicate that I should be getting excellent grades, right? Wrong. My grades are eh.</p>

<p>The people who get good grades and do the best in college are those who develop good study habits in high school and who are involved in activities they care about. The SAT doesn’t tell you much about those things, or much in general.</p>

<p>Good for Wake Forest for recognizing that the SAT just adds unnecessary stress, another unnecessary hurdle, for college applicants, and puts people who could be very successful at a disadvantage. The SAT measures a very specific kind of thinking, a kind of thinking that definitely does not define intelligence.</p>

<p>Objective, schmobjective. Just because something is numerically objective doesn’t mean it’s fair.</p>

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<p>I hate to say it but it is often the case that the high SAT/low GPA applicant simply deserves a top school more than the high GPA/low SAT applicant because the latter often got that higher GPA by taking easier classes and being a whiney ass if he or she got an A- on a transcript. These people do exist for real.</p>

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<p>AHHH Y2K for college admissions!</p>

<p>Bartleby, the purpose of a college admissions process is not to select the most academically capable class (at least not at Wake). It is to select a group of hard-working individuals who can be trained (and are eager) to be the next generation of leaders and upstanding citizens. Academics and intellect play a significant, but not single-handed role in this process. The SAT/ACT are generally excellent indicators of a student’s future success, but certainly not indicative of personal traits, and work ethic. Recall, as well, that most applicants to Wake are not “dumb” to begin with. Most have around a 1300-1400. What determines the acceptance/rejection of these applicants in a purely objective admissions process? A couple, maybe 3-4 questions on a test. Sign errors. Misbubblings. A slow(er) test-taker who is still remarkably gifted. By the way, the kid with a 1500 who got in has three felonies and wrote about his addiction to pyrotechnics. So yes, the process is meant to be rigorous for applicants to Wake, because it is selecting applicants who will positively impact Wake Forest’s “vibrant learning community, which weds knowledge and experience” (according to President Hatch, as referred to in the prompt of last year’s main essay).</p>

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<p>Why doesn’t Wake simply refuse to accept SAT results from any applicant. If the SAT doesn’t provide any meaningful measure of academic ability, just drop it completely. I think we all know the chaos that would cause, and the steep drop in quality of the freshman class. GPA, class rank are not good indicators. You know the old saying, in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king!</p>

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<p>Turtle,</p>

<p>Exactly. I’m not fan of the SAT or ACT. I just think that Wake Forest is having it’s cake and eating it too by making it “optional.”</p>

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<p>Have you looked at some of the other threads? I have already seen comments regarding poor SATs and follow-up advice to look into WF because no one has to submit testing. </p>

<p>One particular student: Well, WF wasn’t originally on his radar, but he plans to look into now. Actually, he mentioned that he was an under represented minority, so maybe WF is getting what it wants. The problem is that he had his sights set higher than WF and knows that he may have to settle for less than he wanted. WF shouldn’t be relegated to the “I’ll apply there since I don’t think I can do better” pile. I don’t mean to sound tacky, but that truly is the gist of the matter.</p>

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<p>Here are some articles that were posted online today about this subject in case anyone wants to read: </p>

<p>[Wake</a> Forest runs risk with no-SAT option | ajc.com](<a href=“http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/stories/2008/06/04/sated_0604.html]Wake”>http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/stories/2008/06/04/sated_0604.html)</p>

<p>[“Doug</a> Clark: Wake’s SAT change is less than it seems” : News-Record.com : Greensboro, North Carolina](<a href=“http://www.news-record.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080604/NRSTAFF/806040301]"Doug”>http://www.news-record.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080604/NRSTAFF/806040301)</p>

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<p>Uh, not difficult to understand that some people believe it, but it is difficult to find data to support that belief…</p>