My point exactly, @busdriver11.
My observant Muslim next door neighbor hosted interfaith prayer groups that I miss now that the family has moved away. Attended by Christians of both Protestant and Catholic backgrounds, Muslims, B’hais, Buddhists. I don’t recall if we had Jewish attendees, but I know some were invited. I certainly learned a lot about faith beliefs and living as a person of faith and most certainly agree that sweeping assumptions about any group are likely invalid. By the way, this woman, whose faith was clearly very real and vital, did not wear the hajib in her daily life.
post 15–I meant non-Muslim high school girls accepting “hijab day” as a good thing.
@stradmom - Thanks for posting the link. Since it is behind a paywall, the following concludes the article.
@doschicos and @romanigypsyeyes - Both of you need to grow up and stop the personal attacks. Other parents are going to have events like this at their high school, and they will need to make informed choices as to what to tell their kids. @stadmom and others responded with helpful productive posts, you did not.
I’m now wondering if roman and doschicos think any differently after reading the article linked in post 8.
My initial reaction was “that might be actually interesting” but after reading the article I see it entirely in a new light.
How would the girl who is sponsoring the day at her school feel if someone else handed out a copy of the article at the same time? “The Walk a Mile in her Shoes” may be met with severe criticism of her particular brand of religion. Would she still do it? Would the school in all its “open mindedness” allow it still? There’s always more than one side to a story.
“There’s always more than one side to a story.”
Exactly. I’d have no problem with either the “wear a hijab day”, the circulation of the article, or preferably both. But I am one who thinks high school kids can be critical thinkers and would welcome an exchange of ideas from different viewpoints. They would not have upset me if they had taken place in my kids’ high school. My kids benefit from being exposed to a variety of viewpoints and are intelligent enough to consider them all and formulate their own opinions. I wouldn’t consider it “pushing”. I think that the comments @dfbdfb makes in post #16 are valid. There is no “one size fits all” answer.
There may be no “one size fits all” answer but without both sides it can become propaganda.
Why would that link make me think differently?
People are permitted to wear or not whatever they want (with a few exceptions of course).
I didn’t give my opinion on the event.
Roman–Didn’t read your post that way.
“Whining” and “taking offense” doesn’t occur in a vacuum.The topic has already been stated. The use of those words demean the speaker who has a legitimate viewpoint. You are entitled to your opinion and welcome to disagree and argue the case be it for or against this topic or anything else.
Or best yet ignore the subject since it doesn’t interest you. Being dismissive of the speaker doesn’t promote an open discussion.
Being targeted for assassination, etc. is typical for heads of government.
The point was that wearing a head scarf is not necessarily the same as subscribing to the subservient viewpoint that is forced upon women in places like the KSA.
Oh I got this one. Men wear it as a reminder that they are connected to God. The idea is that women are inherently stronger than men and don’t need the reminder. Their spirituality is more innate. Also, it’s to cover your bald spot.
“The point was that wearing a head scarf is not necessarily the same as subscribing to the subservient viewpoint that is forced upon women in places like the KSA.”
But that doesn’t keep powerful women from keeping other women down and condoning subservient behavior for their own gain.
I think the writers of that article should sponsor a “Walk a Mile in Her Burka day”, say, in mid July.
Interesting article. She is practically correct about the fact that some countries try to push certain interpretations of gray areas in Islam down everybody else’s throat. But in the course of proving her point, she deliberately left out certain parts of the verses she mentioned and completely ignored others. I’m not saying she doesn’t have a valid point - Hijab is a choice, that much is clear - rather I’m saying that she proved her point in a way very similar to how those Saudi clerics proved theirs. Anyhow, I’m not about to get into a theological discussion, since this isn’t the point of the thread.
I see no problem in the event mentioned in the OP. It’s a good way to give other people an understanding of what those girls go through everyday.
As an aside here’s an interesting little tidbit from Islamic history: one of the Prophet Muhammad’s wives - the daughter of a Jewish tribe leader - refused to wear the hijab. She told him that in her dad’s household - and in her tribe more generally - no one ordered her around and that she should be free to wear or not wear what she wants. She eventually did wear it, but she stressed that she did it to please God (Allah loves modesty of ALL humans not just women). I can’t find the story in English but I’ll look it up and try and translate it. The Qur’an also primarily and explicitly tells the ** men ** to “lower your gaze and guard [your] private parts”. If a woman wants to wear the hijab, she should be able to without condemnation. Likewise if she doesn’t want to. I don’t think it’s any man or woman’s place - even if they share the same faith - to tell other women what is “acceptable” to wear or not to wear. I agree with @dfbdfb; some of my sisters wear the hijab, and some don’t (and no, we’re not “moderate, civilized” Muslims. We’re Muslims, period).
I think that the event is a way of trying to convince people that hijab-wearing isn’t innately sexist. I think it is innately sexist. Any practice that says women have to wear extra coverings in order to hide themselves from men’s uncontrollable lust, whether that practice is Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or something else is abhorrent to me.
I think these issues with the hijab, is it a good thing or a bad thing or a gray area or whatever…are certainly things high schoolers can benefit from discussing. Therefore, it seems like a positive to me.
@romanigypsyeyes “People are permitted to wear or not whatever they want (with a few exceptions of course).”
I know you are well intended Romani, but many of these women do not have any choice, even in the US. Until they are through college and completely on their own, they have to do what they are told.
Women in most Muslim countries nowadays don’t have a choice anymore. They just have to conform and wear a hijab. However, this used to be different even 20 years ago. I lived in the Middle East in the early 90s and traveled extensively in the region. The only countries where I HAD to cover up were Iran and during a brief stop in Djidda/KAS. And beyond those two countries, women seemed to have a choice … in Iraq, in Syria, in Egypt, etc. I even saw uncovered women in Yemen.
Last summer, I went back to Istanbul and was surprised that about 80 - 90 percent of women of all ages wore a head scarf. This was very different when I visited in the late 1980s and 1990s. I had friends in the countryside whose moms and grandmoms wore headscarves but not my 20-some friends.
Just recently, I read an article by a Moroccan journalist in which she compares the photos of her semi-Hippie Francophile parents in the 1960s to her now very religious, stern, conservative parents (mom covering from head to toe). The author’s theory was that the farther Muslim countries are removed time-wise from French/European ideals, the more religious and fanatic they become. I wish I remembered where I read that article. It might have been in the Economist.
Other than in Muslim countries, I remember older women in Southern Italy and Spain wearing headscarves all the time. I remember seeing photos of Russian babushkas with headscarves or women in Catholic churches or at Papal audiences … My grandmother used to wear a headscarf when doing farm work. And I think there is even a picture of Elizabeth II. wearing one. Of course, those were not mandated hijabs and only worn in certain situations.
Perhaps some other explanations are:
- KSA oil money funding the export of ultra-conservative religious doctrine to other countries.
- Low levels of political rights and civil liberties in most countries with high Muslim populations and the failures of past less-religious governments making conservative religious movements seem more attractive as an alternative.
Here is a survey on attitudes in several countries with high Muslim populations on women’s dress:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/01/14/qa-with-author-of-u-mich-study-on-preferred-dress-for-women-in-muslim-countries/
@Consolation I don’t know where you get your information about Islam from, but you seem sadly misinformed. Islam says nothing about “lustful men that need to be covered from”. If you choose to wear the hijab, you do it for God. Period. Doing for men’s attention or to convince people you’re pious is heavily warned against in Islam (doing things in this sense purely because of people’s opinions is called * Ria’a*, and is a sin. For instance if you donate anything for the sake of being called generous, your donation is not accepted by God). Now, I will agree that some Muslim majority countries push the same narrative you describe above. This has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with men trying to subjugate women. I doubt that this is news to anybody on this forum. Some men would seize any excuse to keep women “under control”. Case in hand : it was only in 2015 that KSA allowed women into Parliament, despite there being no religious barrier to the appointments. Sadly, some women are complicit in this too (and you see this EVERYWHERE). If a girl wants to wear a hijab let her. Saying that she is ‘subjugating’ herself is as misleading as saying a girl in a bikini is ‘cheapening’ herself.