wanting the best education for your child(ren) is a good thing

zoosermom · October 9, 2010, 1:29pm

I’m really glad that you took the time to post that. A couple of earlier posts conveyed a hostility that I didn’t think you intended.

My son is in middle school in a very diverse NYC public school – a music magnet program. His role model (the kid the next step up the chain) is a boy whose parents immigrated from China who plays he clarinet and sax, as my son does. In the concert last year, one of the most fun parts was watching this boy smoke the sax, put it down and come up with the clarinet without missing a beat. The absolute personification of cool.

epiphany · October 9, 2010, 1:39pm

Tell me about it!

Ditto here. No substitute for that. I sent mine in Grade 3.

I cannot agree more.

musicprnt · October 9, 2010, 1:41pm

Olfdfort-
If you read my post, you will notice that I specifically didn’t state it was ‘asians can’t play music’, that is hogwash and I would never say that.The problem is that music is culture relevant, and the classical music we are talking about has a long tie into the culture of the west. Even in the US, where classical music is not ‘popular’, people have been listening to it in the form of movie music and yeah, in commercials and such (I would bet that thanks to commercials and movies most people could identify the ‘flight of the valkyries’ from Wagner’s ring with ease). What I am talking about has been written in music magazines and the like, and it is also evident that many talented Asian kids go to Europe or the US for their advanced training, because they realize that teaching at home is limited. Plus frankly there are a lot of teachers in this country that seem to lack the feel for the music IMO, who teach technique, and having sat in competitions I can tell you from who won that the teachers on the panel didn’t have a good feel for the music, either. It is a lot easier to teach music technicality then it is the artistic side, and the word magazines use is that teachers, especially in Asia, seem afraid of their ability to do that…put it this way, a music teacher trained in western music who went to China and tried to teach students to play the Erhu and other traditional instruments would have a hard time. Asian music is quite different from western classical, its tonal structure is very different, as are its traditions.

I’ll give you an idea, a bunch of members of the Chamber Music society of Lincoln center went on a roadshow in I believe either Korea or Taiwan, where they did master classes with some really talented students and they were awed at the level of the students, the tone and the beautiful sound many of them had. But they were shocked that the kids didn’t seem to understand context (and these were not little kids, I am talking late teens on), that they were playing Mozart and Beethoven the same way and so forth (as a result, next time they go on one of these roadtrips, they are going to take musicologists and such with them to help teach about the music). You can’t play the music without understanding it, what the composer is saying, the style, and musicians need to make pieces their own and a lot of kids of all kinds struggle with that, and the hard work and discipline alone cannot overcome that, that’s all.

BTW, my comments about not having a feel for the music, playing woodenly, holds true for a lot of non Asian music students out there, there are a lot of mediocre music teachers out there and it shows in their students. There are also a lot of teachers from all backgrounds whose idea of teaching music is having the kids copy exactly the way that they play and that doesn’t work well either.

The other point is there are tremendous Asian musicians who do make it, who do play beautifully, and have been for a while, and the numbers are increasing because more and more kids are coming up who do get it, who have had the right teachers who got across to them what the music is about, probably because they have been performers themselves and understand. Want an example? Go on you tube and look up a kid called Ray Chen, who won back to back the Queen Elixabeth and Menuhin competitions, I saw him in his student days and had my socks knocked off and have been a fan since; people like Cho Lin and Kyuang Wha Chung have had long solo careers and are both respected teachers now, and obviously you have people like Midori (also teaching, and even more incredible as a performer these days) and of course Yo Yo Ma and Lang Lang and one of my favorites, Mitsuko; I also see the next generation a lot, and some of them blow my socks off, so don’t assume I am speaking of all or speaking from not knowing, I am not; I was using music as an example of where the work ethic alone isn’t enough, and used Asian students because a)they are so common in music now b)have achieved technical excellence at leves unheard of (kids getting into conservatory today are playing at levels that kids graduating used to have in many cases) and c)yet many struggle with the ‘musical’ side of it and I think it is because they had bad teaching, as many music students do, period.

violadad · October 9, 2010, 2:25pm

In defense of musicprnt, I agree with the music assessment made. It is apparent at the highest levels. It is a function of the teaching/instructional methodologies in use in many of the Asian based developmental music programs. The emphasis is on technique and repetition, with virtually no focus on the relationship of theory, music history or interpretation, musicality.

Most, if not all of those artists named here have done their advanced studies under US, European tutelage; it is the reason that the applicant pools at Juilliard, NEC, and CIM are awash with applicants of Asian training. Technical masters, but often far behind the curve in terms of small ensemble playing, sight reading. It is the reason why most of the Oriental conservatory programs actively seek teaching artists/faculty trained in the west.

As musicprnt suggests, it is a function of the teaching philosophies and methodologies, not the ethnic label.

switters · October 10, 2010, 4:08pm

Ok- I probably won’t say any of this as intelligently as everyone else up here. But I really liked the parent who said (and Im paraphrasing) “come do math for a couple of hours on Saturday, even if you are not Asian” and “tell me about your american sports and Ill join them”

I also think you can switch out the term “Asian” or Jew and switch in “immigrant” or “someone coming from an oppressive situation within the recent memory of themselves, parents or grandparents” and most of what is said will hold true.

I really don’t feel like there is a problem with a little or a lot of ethnic pride. When I was a white-girl engineer in graduate school in the '80s, the Chinese and Indian kids adopted me into their study groups and homework sessions and labs. I learned a lot about hard work and community from them. But part of it was they all had so much at stake. There was a lot of pressure for them, and I still remember feeling like I needed to understand and not take my good fortune for granted.

hyeonjlee · October 10, 2010, 8:24pm

Just came back from a weekend outing, and found out that I had been called a racist and accused of having mocked the founding fathers. Someone else also mentioned that s/he is “glad to know that I love this country” since I sounded hostile before.

The charge of being a racist or having mocked the founding fathers is SO OVER THE TOP, I won’t dignify the statement by attempting to show how this is so wrong and groundless.

I must say, this whole exchange reminds me of a couple of incidents in the past when I was involved in a heated political discussion in a group where I was pointing out that we must as a society address some of the problems we are having and come up with a better way to evolve. One of them shouted “If you don’t like what’s going on here, you should go back to where you came from”.

Some may say the exchange here has nothing to do with whether I am a naturalized citizen or born here. However, I highly doubt that folks would easily come up with the statements on on this forum (racist, mocking founding fathers, “glad that you love this country”, etc) for another “bona fide” American who disagreed with them. Actually, this is a fairly common experience among vocal immigrants.

There are people who think by simply having been born here (through no merit or choice of their own), they earned right to tell people who CHOSE to come and become part of the society that they don’t have any right to have constructive criticism over the areas where we must improve to continue to prosper well into the 21st century.

I have every right to a constructive criticism for this country as anyone born here. I pay tax, way over the average of any group. I contribute to this country’s economy. I do my best to help those who are not as fortunate as I. For Pete’s take, I have a son who is willing to risk his life to fight for this country by joining the military - something most of the armchair patriots cannot say in a million years. I have another son who is dreaming of becoming a major financier and then sharing his hard earned wealth to make a positive change in the society for the downtrodden.

Throughout human history, people who were not content with the status quo, people who raised a hell for the improvement needed, people who dared to tell everybody that the emperor had no clothes on, they made a difference.

I made a very deliberate choice to come to this country. I feel fortunate to an American citizen. I am grateful for the opportunities and choices I have here that would not have been possible in a country that I was born and raised in. I will continue to “show my love” for this country by being vocal about where we need to improve and yes, telling everybody that the emperor has no clothes on when appropriate.

In this spirit, I stand by the assertion that we have an academically inclined, achievement oriented immigrant group that keeps others on the toe, and that’s a good thing since it helps ensure that we continue to aspire to do better. If this is considered as being racist, so be it.

Remember, the pilgrims were the original illegal/undocumented aliens, and founding fathers were wonderful people but not without faults. Let’s not turn this “patriotism thing” into a religion where no blasphemy is to be allowed and the apostates are to be burned at a stake.

Dad_II · October 10, 2010, 8:30pm

mod. Please lock this thread. I did not intend to have the discussion to go this way.

TheGFG · October 10, 2010, 8:36pm

A nice summation in post 145.

A comment: the friend I referenced whose 11 year old will be taking SAT 2’s is actually a very nice, intelligent woman. Her child is bright but not exceptionally so, and he does play outside too! Here’s the thing: I can’t prove this, but I think that 20 years ago 99.9% of parents in this country with a child like hers would have felt satisfied that their son was smart and doing very well in school. They wouldn’t have felt the need to accelerate him by 6 years! And the friends and neighbors of a such a person would have viewed her as very extreme and wouldn’t have felt the slightest impulse to copy her methods.

Where I live, though, she’s in good company. She belongs to organizations full of like-minded people. In addition, when her neighbors and friends find out about her son’s accomplishments, they start to worry about their children’s academic level and respond by putting their children in special classes and tutoring programs because they don’t want their kids to be left behind. Furthermore, the public schools are accomodating these accerlerated children in that they are using school resources to bus elementary and middle school kids to the high school, and then to provide advanced college classes (beyond AP) to high schoolers. Then, the existence of such “extreme” acceleration becomes more publicized, and more parents feel paranoid and begin trying to similarly accelerate their children so they can still achieve those minimum milestones perceived as important for college applications, such as the honor roll and NHS, which otherwsie would be monopolized by the already super-advanced.

I’m not necessarily opposed to reasonable G&T programs. I AM opposed to this crazy rat race and spending tax dollars to provide two or three years of college classes to public school high school students.

starbright · October 10, 2010, 8:44pm

This is both funny yet not remotely surprising that you have no clue- no clue!- about the absurdity of the stuff you start threads with and the reaction it creates. No sense whatsoever about how your words are interpreted and the impact it has on your audience (unless it’s all a ruse, all on purpose). I can not think of a single person on CC who is so often ‘misunderstood’.

Truly, what did you expect when you started a thread about the superiority of a particular cultural group? And you do it time and again with almost every other post you start DadII- whether about your kids’ superiority, your staying home wife, your cruise, your car, your ‘dirt poor’ status and financial aid boondoogles.

Just goes to show having a formal education (don’t you have a phd?) isn’t all that.

starbright · October 10, 2010, 8:47pm

This is both funny yet not remotely surprising that you have no clue- no clue!- about the absurdity of the stuff you start threads with and the reaction it creates. No sense whatsoever about how your words are interpreted and the impact it has on your audience (unless it’s all a ruse, all on purpose). I can not think of a single person on CC who is so often ‘misunderstood’.

Truly, what did you expect when you started a thread about a superior attribute held by a particular ethnic group? And you do it time and again with almost every other post you start DadII- whether about your kids’ superiority, your staying home wife, your cruise, your car, your ‘dirt poor’ status and financial aid boondoogles. You just don’t get it.

Just goes to show having a formal education (don’t you have a phd?) isn’t all that.

lake42ks · October 10, 2010, 9:44pm

Very funny. I thought this thread went really well with lots of good points and something to think about, though it got heated at times but no hard feelings.

Don’t worry GFG. If the kids are not that talented, they’ll hit the wall in HS. Your HS should not provide anything beyond APs IMO. There are lots to be learned in HS than taking college courses.

jym626 · October 10, 2010, 10:19pm

Why lock a thread that actually had a meaningful, interesting conversation by going off topic (when the original topic was as outrageous as starbright so eloquently summarized above). Way to go, cc’ers!!!

Dad_II · October 10, 2010, 10:46pm

O.k. SB, ref your post of 149 and 150. I think those are abusive and peronal attack.

When did I say any thing about “superiority of a particular cultural group”? Did I say any group is smarter or could run faster than others? All I did was citing a recent census data.

I talked about my old 2003 Ford whose transmission broke @ close to 100,000 miles. How could that be “superior” to anything? And when I did I say about about cruise? I don’t think I took one yet. Just to raise a couple points.

All these just to show you that your comments are not based on facts. I get it that some of you on CC that does not like me.

BTW, if you don’t like what I say, you don’t have to come in. Like I don’t read certain person’s post anymore.

jym626 · October 10, 2010, 10:53pm

^^ What car did you buy to replace the old one with, DadII? We all helped you with car shopping and car deals. What did you get? Why wont you share? Such a tease.

And SB probably confused the Caribbean resort vacation with a cruise. Simple mistake. What are the plans for the Hawaii trip?

TheGFG · October 11, 2010, 1:27am

hyeonjlee–it is simple good manners that when you are a guest in someone’s home, you don’t complain about the food. The US welcomes immigrants and allows them to work here in high-earning jobs. Regardless of the economic reasons for that permission, it is still a privilege that many other countries do not extend. We also allow immigrants to come here and not work at all, or work in low-paying jobs and yet we give them food assistance and free medical care. This is also not something that can be said of most countries. Our generosity has been both a blessing to us and a burden. As someone who loves the United States, you should understand that especially now in rough economic times, people are sensitive about government aid to foreign nations and to foreigners within our borders.

You do work in a well-paying job and you do pay taxes, and so you see yourself as an equal member of our society. If you have become a naturalized citizen, then you are indeed equal. But surely you can understand why others may still see you as guest. You weren’t born here, but were invited to enter our house and eat at our table. Frankly, people are going to believe that that gives you less right to criticize and complain. You may disagree, but if you want to get along here you need to learn to be more sensitive. And certainly, predicting that yellow people will become the bosses of our white children is not going to endear you to us.

kobudnik · October 11, 2010, 2:05am

I’m not a parent but I thought I’d chime in.

I read an interesting article a couple of years ago about an Asian girl at Harvard. Her parents were the stereotypical pushy Asians that demanded success. Couldn’t go out on Friday nights. Studying hours on end. Friends came last. They asked her if it was worth all the trouble to get into Harvard. Her simple answer was “No.”

Is it really worth the cost? I’d say no too. You only live once. I know many asians with parents like this. They have virtually no social lives. Sure, they get into good colleges. What’s the point of living if you aren’t going to enjoy yourself. It’s possible to be successful without being domineered to study study study. The whole asian culture is a major turn off to me.

momma-three · October 11, 2010, 6:37am

^ I can’t think of anything that is worth living an unbalanced life for, not prestige, money or power could replace the human need to have people in your life. Of course she said “no” she is finished with Harvard and has nothing to look forward to in her free time…the world could get lonely when you strive to be better than your natural abilties. There is a fine line that needs to be drawn between what we expect kids to give up in order to be the best. Once this line is crossed it is the children who suffer in seclusion and guilt that they can never be what their parents hoped for.

oldfort · October 11, 2010, 7:37am

TheGFG - you are no more of a host of the US than HyeonJlee. You feel that way because you were born here? If that’s the definition then I could point out number of parasites who were born in this country. I didn’t agree with everything she said, and I am an Asian working in finance, but I respect her point of view.

She is not a guest in this country. She is a self supporting professional, married to an American, with two sons born in this country. She has as much vested interest in this country as anyone on this board. Just because one is born in this country, doesn’t make him/her more American.

oldfort · October 11, 2010, 7:53am

Kobudnik: if you ask your same friends 20 years from now, they will give you a different answer. I felt the same as your friends when I was in high school, and my siblings did too. Now we all have kids, we understand our parents more. Their insecurity made them push us harder. We are not exactly the same with our kids because we are a lot more financially secured. At the same time, our work ethic is still the same.

All of our family’s kids probably will go to top tier schools, and that doesn’t happen just because parents could afford it, it requires a lot of hard work on our kids part. I agree we only live once. There are many things that you can’t do over- change low high school GPA, get criminal record off or even high school suspension off. I tell my kids to live their life so there is never, “could have, should have”.

ihs76 · October 11, 2010, 9:47am

Wow, where to start… I have to say, the GFG, that you did more with those sentences to make me feel like a tolerated-for-now outsider than I ever have felt in the 40+ years I have lived in the US. I guess I just haven’t been around the right kind of people. As far as eating at your table, as a professional who pays more in taxes every year than the average family income in my state, I think, frankly, that people are eating at my table. And no, I’m not taking the job of some deserving ‘native.’ My field is severely underserved as a whole, and more acutely, where I live. I have had more big buckled, big hatted cowboys cry in my office and thank me for saving their lives than I can recall.

After marrying a freckled redhead who can change oil with his eyes closed, raising 2 children including an NCAA athlete, voting in every presidential election since I was 18, owning several Chevy Suburbans and Dodge diesel P/U trucks, having visited all 50 states except OK, making a better apple and pumpkin pies than 99% of the population, attending more little league, hockey and soccer games than I care to recall, financially supporting my ‘practically came on the Mayflower’ in-laws for a time being, no, I don’t see myself as a guest, and I’m sorry if I don’t seem to know my place in this society. Fortunately, I seem to have gotten along just fine despite my lack of sensitivity to my less than equal status. Seriously, I have less right to criticize and complain than Joe the Plumber?

wanting the best education for your child(ren) is a good thing

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