Washu vs. Cornell(rawlings research scholar) vs. Northwestern for premed

So my S24 is a first year at WashU, possibly Bio major and possible premed, and I can discuss that in a bit more detail.

But first, I would not hesitate to choose either of those other colleges over WashU, but only IF they were comfortably affordable (I think a good general rule of thumb is you could pay for them without more than the federal loan limits, and with med school as a possibility, possibly not even that in loans), and IF you thought your overall four-year college experience would be better than your experience at WashU. Under those conditions, I would not recommend choosing WashU because it is “good for premed”–there is too large a chance that won’t actually make a difference for one reason or another.

Which takes me to the subject of people switching out of premed at WashU. As others are suggesting, some sort of process like that happens at pretty much any highly selective research university. And sure, some kids struggle in the early “weeder” class (through approximately the first semester of Orgo), and in those cases, that may be a major part of why they change tracks.

But I think a lot of other kids just decide they would rather do something different. Maybe something entirely different, but also maybe something different in the health field. And there are so, so many great careers in health besides being a doctor, and as you start learning more about your options, you might well realize you just prefer a different option.

And WashU’s pre-health advising is actually really good about encouraging kids to think seriously about all that, giving them lots of opportunities to learn more about their options. I don’t think this is at all unique to WashU, but I would say WashU is among the colleges really devoted to this sort of advising.

OK, so do a lot of WashU kids end up starting premed but not applying to med school in the end? Absolutely. But in many of those cases, it was very much a matter of choosing some other educational and career path they learned about, as opposed to literally being forced out of premed.

But again, I am sure that is broadly true at Cornell and Northwestern too. And part of what is nice about all these sorts of colleges is pretty no matter what else you decided to do there, they would be at least very good for that sort of thing. Which is why I would urge you to prioritize affordability as relevant, and then your overall four-year college experience.

As a final thought, I do think in some ways WashU can feel a little smaller and more intimate than some other private research universities. Again, not uniquely, like Princeton, Dartmouth, I’d say William & Mary (which is actually a public but I think feels like a private), and others would be in this category too. But I would suggest maybe WashU is more toward this end of the spectrum than Cornell or Northwestern.

Which could be a good or bad thing. But as you are thinking about your overall four-year experience, you could in fact take that into account.

In a related point, WashU makes it very easy to combine all sorts of majors and minors. So like my S24 might well end up a dual major in Bio and Classics with a minor in Applied Microeconomics. It seems like 2/3rds of the WashU kids we have met as guides and such have had some combination like that. It is just their thing.

I note this because I do think in a way this a nice thing for possible premeds as well, like you can easily explore other stuff you might refocus on if you end up not doing premed, or just take whatever classes you know you will do well in and end up with an interesting-sound degree. This is far, far from the most important thing for a possible premed, but I thought I would mention it in this context of just thinking about what your total college experience might end up looking like.

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I didn’t exactly fall in love with WashU when I visited, but I do like the smaller class sizes as compared to the other two. One major thing i’m concerned about though is the grade deflation(i think at all 3), and I wanted to ask you how much your child studies + how hard they think the deflation is, as I hope for premed to keep a good gpa(like hopefully 3.8+), which I’m pretty sure is really hard at the other two.

If i fall in love with cornell at visit, like you said, i probably would choose there as it is affordable

Just want to say there is NOTHING wrong with DO programs. I know it’s not seen as being ‘as prestigious’ but from a personal experience -my DOs have generally been better physicians in terms of empathy and actually listening.
I know you aren’t DO bashing here -but I think it needs to be said.

Definitely agree with the committee letter. This is how a lot of places make their MD/DO acceptance rates look so high.

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I agree with all you said. I meant no disrespect to DO programs…just noting that some schools (and they know who they are) don’t report DO apps/acceptances, and some don’t even support DO apps (Sadly). One has to know what’s in the numerator and denominator of med school acceptance rates to compare across schools.

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Understandable seems like there is nothing at WashU other than the campus. Almost seems like the campus is it’s own little bubble.

Regarding average size of individual classes: Northwestern University should have the fewest students per class (after Columbia) as well as highest percentage of classes with fewer than 20 students. When this was reported to US News, Northwestern, U Chicago, & Columbia were the top three National Universities in this respect if I recall correctly. Of course, this could vary by major and some intro classes (such as Micro & Macro) are large (over 100 students for lectures with tiny break-out sections for semi-individualized instruction ).

Regarding individual classes,among the top 25 ranked National Universities, WashUStL, Cornell, UCLA, UC-Berkeley, Emory, and U Michigan had the highest percentage of classes with over 50 students per class.

Northwestern, U Chicago, & Dartmouth College tied for the lowest percentage (6%) of classes with more than 50 students.

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Cornell has 12.5K degree seeking undergrads

Northwestern 8,800

WUSTL 7,900

So my S24 is doing very well in his classes so far (this is actually part of why he is beginning to get more interested in premed), and I think he would agree the amount of work is reasonable. I might note he is also able to play two club sports (the competitive kind where they travel and play other colleges), and be reasonably social.

However, you should probably have some context. First, he was exceptionally well-prepared for the classes he has taken so far by his HS, which is probably the best HS for STEM in our metropolitan area, and on top of that he also took a college Bio class at CMU one summer. He was also a three-sport varsity athlete in HS, two of them being the two sports he is doing for club. And in fact part of his preparation for college was just developing really, really good study and time management habits, such that he knows how to use his time very efficiently.

Meanwhile, he knows other people who are not doing as well as they hoped, and I think it is likely some of them will soon be getting off the premed track. I don’t know all their stories, but one common theme seems to be some of these kids are “studying” many hours, including long into the night. To the point they are not getting enough sleep, sometimes missing morning classes, and so on. Which is really not a good set of habits, and both my S24 and I wonder exactly what they are doing all those hours they are “studying”.

But I also suspect this worked for these kids in HS. It basically had to, otherwise they wouldn’t be at WashU. And now it is a shock to them it isn’t working so well in college.

That’s a lot, but I think the upshot is good grades in these classes is definitely possible, but it isn’t random, and it isn’t simply a function of being willing to “grind”. You will most likely do well if you are very well prepared, if you have truly good study habits, if you have good overall time management, and if you can actually do all that and have a generally healthy lifestyle–physically, emotionally, socially, and so on.

And my guess is all that would work pretty well anywhere. And I also think if you don’t have all that, you could struggle at a many different colleges.

Having been there several times now, I would just suggest a different impression.

First, across the street from WashU is Forest Park, which I seriously think is one of the nicest urban parks in the world. There are just so many different things to do and it is quite attractive.

Then immediately around the other three sides of WashU are nice residential neighborhoods (and where a lot of students live), and then you start getting to some fun local commercial areas. The Delmar Loop is the closest, but there are lots of historic neighborhoods with their own interesting restaurants, shops, and so on. Those are more Uber trips than walking trips, and my S24 is taking a car for his second year to help with those trips, but they are definitely close when you have transportation.

OK, and then there are a couple Metro stops on either end of campus, and those can take you to places like Downtown St Louis, where of course there is a lot to do. Like my S24 just texted pictures from a Cardinals game, he went to a big soccer match (I admit I do not recall why it was big, but we were able to watch on TV and we think we spotted him in the stands), and there are many museums, and so on.

All that said, the campus is beautiful, the South 40 where the first years live is particularly swank, and I think if you WANT to stay in the WashU “bubble”, you can.

But all this other stuff is easily accessible, if you want it. And maybe if you can split some Ubers, it will help.

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