Water for Elephants - April CC Book Club Selection

Parent Cafe
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<p>You put my feelings into words quite well. :slight_smile: Ultimately Water for Elephants disappointed me, because I expected so much more from it - unfair reaction, perhaps.</p>

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<p>The author left me hanging here. I assume the point to be Jacob’s increasing discontent and isolation. Still … And what about Camel’s relationship with his son … again, I wanted to know what happened. Alcoholism, maybe?</p>

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<p>August watches Marlena closely. Others warn Jacob about getting too close to Marlena, citing previous incidents in which August attacks someone he suspects of eyeing Marlena too closely. So my answer would be: from the first moment. It differs here, though, when August hits Marlena. For the first time, his suspicions seem confirmed - but he always waits, watching, in the background.</p>

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<p>When I compare Water for Elephants to something like Cutting for Stone–one of my favorites (though not yours, ignatius ;))-- Gruen’s content seems very thin. However, I didn’t close the book and feel let down. I enjoyed the story, and liked the fact that it was a relatively light read that I was able to breeze through. Although it may not be as beneficial for the soul, sometimes it’s fun to just take a walk in the park rather than climb Mount Everest, if you know what I mean. </p>

<p>I also appreciated that the book explored a topic I knew nothing about. I was prompted to look up the Hartford circus fire, mentioned by the circus manager to Jacob at the end of the book (p. 324). The story of that terrible fire is covered in The Circus Fire: A True Story of an American Tragedy. Coincidentally, the book was written by Stewart O’Nan, whom SouthJerseyChessMom and I were discussing (totally unrelated to the circus) in posts #45, 46, 47. </p>

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<p>I don’t think Jacob was senile–just frustrated, combative and depressed over his inevitable decline. And I believe he was open to love—his appreciation of Rosemary hinted at that. I buy the contrast between the young Jacob and the old Jacob 100%. My dad is 88 years old, fragile, half-blind and as crotchety as can be—a far cry from the, energetic, witty, chain-smoking, martini drinking Dad I grew up with. It happens. I think the change comes from the physical pain of aging, along with an inability to accept the loss of independence. As Jacob says, “Even as your body betrays you, your mind denies it.”</p>

<p>The question is, why is Jacob so distant from his family? Lots of crotchety old man are surrounded by relatives who adore them (hi Dad! :)). Maybe Marlena did the work of keeping kids and dad connected—some families are like that—and without her, Jacob and his children drifted apart.</p>

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<p>Really good analysis - and I think probably hits close to the mark.</p>

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<p>There are so many interesting comments being made about this book.</p>

<p>First, I am not “feeling” CC love for “Water for Elephants”, and I agree it was as Mary says a “walk in the park” read. Not sure,yet, where I’d put in in my line up of CC favs.</p>

<p>Perhaps, our expectations were just too high,as mentioned by BookMama and Ignatius ?
Or, is it as Mary13 pointed out, less than stellar writing?nice job,Mary13 using Kindle to support this critique?
Or did Gruen just not develop some of the characters and plot well enough?</p>

<p>Mary13 your post #59 comparing Camel and Jacob’s experience is fascinating!
Some thoughts:
Re: Family
It seems that many of you are frustrated that Jacob’s offspring appear neglectful, and we don’t know why. Perhaps there is a reason Gruen left us dangling?</p>

<p>My theory is if Gruen had created a “loving, caring” family, the ending MAY not have been acceptable to us (the readers) when Jacob does the inevitable, which is “escape” to the circus in the end. This is the only way, we can believe he can be happy, since he lives more in the past than the present, and his future is so …bleak.</p>

<p>So without caring family left behind, Jacob can “crawl” out and return to his “substitute” family- the circus, an improbable event, but as NJ2011Mom pointed out, and we don’t think he is a “selfish lout”.
(I admit I was quite frustrated with this ending- a cop-out, and I’m with you, Ignatius, thinking the Circus Manager was completely unbelievable, but, afterall, this was a book about “running away to the circus”-what other ending could it have had? )</p>

<p>Regarding Depression era and the Circus life- I found this topic very interesting, despite my dislike of circuses and zoos. I resisted this book for a long,long time.</p>

<p>Regarding Animal Cruelty-“Thank you Sara Gruen, for not being as explicit with August’s beatings of the animals, as you were with the graphic sex scenes, which CCer’s apparently didn’t have problems with ;)”<br>
We can handle the sex! </p>

<p>I found Gruen’s exploration of circus life during the depression more fascinating then I expected. She convinced me that during a dreadful time in our history, there might have been a real community of caring people, struggling for survival, who took care of each other in this traveling band of misfits. A sense of family.</p>

<p>Regarding the book’s structure:
Did others believe that Marlena killed August?
Gruen fooled me completely and actually felt ‘manipulated’ by Gruen, as she developed August into monster he was, justifying his murder in the first chapter.</p>

<p>Was I the only one surprised to find out it wasn’t Marlena who killed August, or did most of you, see it coming ?</p>

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<p>From what we read, Marlena and Jacob were a loving couple and involved parents; it does seem strange that the children don’t want to visit, especially since he seems to still be lucid. We do need to remember that his own kids are old now. He said Simon was around 70, perhaps travel is difficult for Simon, although that would only put the youngest child in their early 60 (at the oldest possibility). I know I don’t want to think of the early 60 as old! I don’t know, I think it’s a disconnect…a flaw in the author’s storytelling. The family has never missed a weekend visit and the circus weekend is the first one they miss. I just don’t think it would happen. They would know how important it was to Jacob.</p>

<p>I enjoyed the back and forth between Jacob’s youth and his old age. I hate to say it made me wonder about myself…but it made me wonder about myself…even though I’ve still got plenty of time before I pass into the elderly phase of my life. Sometimes we look at elderly people and don’t see their past. I enjoyed learning about Jacob’s past and present, I thought it was an good way to share his story.</p>

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<p>I was completely surprised and had to go back and reread the prologue. In fact, I made a note to myself in Chapter 20 where Marlena said “Till Dead Do Us Part” when describing her marriage to August, thinking it would be her love for Jacob that made her kill August.</p>

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<p>Yes…and maybe Gruen realized it, because she puts words in Jacob’s mouth that try to explain away the children’s behavior with a more loving twist; Jacob says re the way they have gradually shut him out of their lives: “I’ve decided it’s not about me at all. It’s a protective mechanism for them, a way of buffering themselves against my future death, like when teenagers distance themselves from their parents in preparation for leaving home” (p. 109).</p>

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<p>Initially, I also thought the prologue showed us Marlena murdering August. About three-fourths of the way through the book, however, I decided that that opening scene was a red herring. Teary, wide-eyed, girlish Marlena simply didn’t have the depth to coolly put August away…It takes one heck of an iron-willed, cold-hearted woman to crush her husband’s head like a watermelon. </p>

<p>But I didn’t guess it was going to be Rosie. What did you think of Rosie? Gruen certainly imbued her with a great deal of character, and even with the ability to (apparently) make deliberate decisions. </p>

<p>Per Wikipedia, “Elephants are amongst the world’s most intelligent species…Elephants exhibit a wide variety of behaviors, including those associated with grief, learning, allomothering, mimicry, art, play, a sense of humor, altruism, use of tools, compassion, cooperation, self-awareness, memory and possibly language. All point to a highly intelligent species that are thought to be equal with cetaceans and primates…Aristotle once said that elephants were ‘The beast which passeth all others in wit and mind.’”</p>

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<p>Chessmom, this is very acute: “My theory is if Gruen had created a “loving, caring” family, the ending MAY not have been acceptable to us (the readers) when Jacob does the inevitable, which is “escape” to the circus in the end. This is the only way, we can believe he can be happy, since he lives more in the past than the present, and his future is so …bleak.”</p>

<p>I think there were really one of only two ways Gruen could’ve written this book: either (A) have old Jacob be a reconciliation of young Jacob, finding love and closure and family in old age what he tragically lost in his youth, or (B) create a link between old Jacob and young Jacob, in failing to keep close to a real life family but instead substituting with the circus family.</p>

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<p>BUandBC, I, also, reread the first chapter at that point in the book. As a new Kindle reader, thought I missed something critical. </p>

<p>BU thanks for reminding me that "The family has never missed a weekend visit and the circus weekend is the first one they miss. </p>

<p>Now I’m not so sure the family was “neglectful”. </p>

<p>Mary, I suspected you had discovered the “red herring” regarding who killed August.
So, Mary what do you think about Rosie, and an elephant’s ability for revenge, deliberate actions ?</p>

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<p>I think that Rosie is smarter than a real elephant, but that it’s irrelevant because Rosie is a literary symbol. I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that Rosie (the Giant) and Walter (the Dwarf) are Jacob’s two alter egos, and each one represents a different facet of his personality. </p>

<p>Jacob and Rosie are both outsiders who join the circus train mid-route, and neither one speaks the language. Rosie does not understand English, only Polish, and Jacob does not understand circus lingo. Camel tells him, “Good God, kid. Just keep your trap shut till you learn the vernacular, would ya?” (p. 36). Both Jacob and Rosie adore Marlena, but have a love-hate relationship with August, who manipulates them with a perverse reward-punishment system (for Rosie, gin, ginger ale and praise, followed by the bull hook or a lit cigarette; for Jacob, a tux, champagne, a gourmet dinner, a shower, followed by a beating and death threats). </p>

<p>And let’s face it…the misleading prologue notwithstanding, Rosie’s murderous act at the end is fulfilling the subconscious will of Jacob, not Marlena. In spite of everything, I think Marlena feels some vestige of loyalty to “Auggie,” whereas Jacob wants him dead.</p>

<p>And what’s the old saying? “An elephant never forgets.” Neither does Old Jacob—whose skin even looks a bit like an elephant: “I lean close and open my eyes very wide, trying to see beyond the sagging flesh” (p. 111).</p>

<p>As for Walter/Kinko, Young Jacob’s resemblance to his roommate is highlighted immediately: “He’s about my age and, like me, has red hair” (p. 61). I think that Walter represents Jacob’s attempt to come to grips with his burgeoning sexuality. Think of Walter literally “coming to grips” in the masturbation scene. (Sorry to be so blunt, but SJChessMom said, “We can handle the sex”!) It is Walter who gives Jacob the “eight-pagers” to look at, and also Walter who has a hand in arranging Jacob’s disastrous “de-flowering” by Barbara and Nell. Interestingly, the flip side of this very graphic, earthy characteristic is an extremely moral, ethical one. Walter is also Jacob’s conscience, the small voice (no pun intended—oh all right, a small pun intended :)) who warns him repeatedly to do the right thing—stay away from Marlena and avoid August. There are all kinds of examples of Walter trying to guide Jacob: “Listen, kid, that’s somewhere you just don’t want to go, you hear me?” (p. 157)…”Jacob, you listen to me,” says Walter (p. 158)… “’Uh, no. Not exactly,’ I say, glancing back at Walter, who’s shaking his head and waving his hands furiously” (p. 193)…”A hand appears on my waist. Walter is standing beside me. ‘Come on, Jacob,’ he says. ‘Walk away’” (p. 247).</p>

<p>When Jacob loses Walter, he has to rely on his own judgement. At that point, he begins to mature. He calls the Dean at Cornell and he steps forward to become the caretaker for others, “a pregnant woman, bereaved dog, elephant, and eleven horses,” to be exact.</p>

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<p>Mary13----well done! Very interesting, and enlightening!!!
And, funny, too !</p>

<p>^^Think of Walter literally “coming to grips” in the masturbation scene.</p>

<p>^^Walter is also Jacob’s conscience, the small voice (no pun intended—oh all right, a small pun intended )</p>

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<p>Of course, Jacob is not really a reliable narrator. In fact, I spent a big chunk of the book wondering if August was real. (Or at least, if August’s mercurialness was real.) Turns out in this case, it was, since we are actually told he has schizo, but for I whiled I wondered if Jacob himself was the actual one with the mood swings and the changing perception instead of August.</p>

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<p>Like others, I reread the prologue after learning Rosie - not Marlena - killed August. In hindsight, it seems so obvious. What a fitting solution to the “August dilemma” - retribution without repercussion. If either Jacob or Marlena murdered August so coldly, I might have been hard-pressed not to feel some guilt over his death - murder most unbecoming. Instead with Rosie it’s more a “you go, girl” (Is that terribly insensitive on my part?) Anyway, accusing Rosie of murder reeks of anthropormorphism. Instead Rosie mimics August’s hurtful behavior toward her: hitting as she’s been hit and then sticking her stake in the ground - no more, no less. Does she understand “hurt” enough to have that intention? I think so. Does she intend murder? Nope. (See how nicely Gruen lets me move past August’s death. :))</p>

<p>Good interview with Gruen: [Curled</a> Up With a Good Book–An interview with Sara Gruen, author of <em>Water for Elephants</em>](<a href=“http://www.curledup.com/intgruen.htm]Curled”>Curled Up With a Good Book--An interview with Sara Gruen, author of *Water for Elephants*)</p>

<p>Mary: note that another author (Gruen) mentions her character (nonagenarian Jacob) waiting to speak. Simonson of Major Pettigrew’s Last Stand mentioned the Major wanting out. Maybe this is why I’ll never be an author; I have no voices in my head - other than the one running over my to-do list.</p>

<p>From the posted interview:</p>

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<p>Ignatius- great link above. I especially liked this </p>

<p>What would you like readers to take away from Water for Elephants?</p>

<p>Gruen:
“I want people to think about how we treat those who are dependent on us—animals, the elderly, the debilitated. I want people to think about the power of love in all its forms.”</p>

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<p>Interesting…It’s true that the first person narrative means that we have to take whatever Jacob says on faith. I wonder what August’s version of the story would be?</p>

<p>Speaking of narration, what did all of you think of the fact that the book was written in the present tense (except for the prologue)? I am guessing that Gruen chose this so as to show the immediacy of Jacob’s memories–that is, how Jacob’s circus life was still very much alive in his mind–but use of the present tense does have its critics.</p>

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<p>[Philip</a> Pullman and Philip Hensher criticise Booker Prize for including present tense novels - Telegraph](<a href=“Philip Pullman and Philip Hensher criticise Booker Prize for including present tense novels”>Philip Pullman and Philip Hensher criticise Booker Prize for including present tense novels)</p>

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<p>Mary13, not sure I understand this issue about present tense.
I was unaware that writers are so critical of “present tense” novels? Who are Pullman and Hensher ? </p>

<p>Did anyone else come across these posts on the Amazon site regarding biblical references in this book? I certainly missed this, too, while reading.
FYI- Sara G is Sara Gruen, because she posts later and confirms.
While reading I did think of Sophie’s Choice, and found it interesting that this person did, too. </p>

<p>FROM AMAZON REVIEWS:
"Why was the Biblical story of Jacob important enough for Sara Gruen to weave into her own story? What does she want the reader to leave with, after making that connection? Is it a form of evangelizing or a tribute to a great book, or something different indeed? Any thoughts would be appreciated.</p>

<p>Did anyone else see the superficial similarity between the main characters in Sara Gruen’s book and those in Sophie’s Choice? I’d call in nearly theft. A young, naive man meets up with a damaged couple comprised of a Catholic woman and an abusive Jewish man with serious emotional problems. The young man falls in love with the woman. However, whereas Styron’s characters are rich and sympathetic (and his story is heart-breaking), Sara Gruen’s are one-dimensional and unsympathetic (and her story is flimsy and uninspiring)."</p>

<p>Sarah G says:
There are anagrams, both exact and phonetic: Catherine Hale=Leah, Marlena L’Arche=Rachel, Alan Bunkel (Uncle Al)=Uncle Laban</p>

<p>There is the flat rock, the dream, the animal husbandry for Uncle Laban, Jacob and Rachel (Marlena) leave with Uncle Al’s (Uncle Laban’s) best livestock, Jacob must do an additional seven years of animal husbandry in order to be with Marlena, he breaks his hip, etc. Some of his children’s names are the same as well.</p>

<p>OK, Sara G., are you really Sara Gruen? If NOT, I’m pretty impressed that you came up the anagrams, etc. - and if you ARE, well then, a big thank you for a most entertaining read!</p>

<p>Sara Gruen says: </p>

<p>You’re most welcome! </p>

<p>SG</p>

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<p>Philip Hensher and Philip Pullman are British novelists (Pullman wrote The Golden Compass, among other things). Here is an article by Hensher on the recent increase in use of the present tense. Hensher doesn’t like the use—or at least the overuse—of the present tense, but his article is more light-hearted than indignant. Parts of it gave me a laugh:</p>

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A London literary agent told me this week that she is seriously considering putting a note on her website for aspiring writers – “No novels about dead twins. No novels in the present tense.”</p>

<p>The routine use of present tense in the historical novel is quickly becoming a terrible clich</p>

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<p>In the Book-Group Discussion Questions at the back of my copy of Water for Elephants:</p>

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<p>I caught that Jacob (and Marlena) chose biblical names for their children, but beyond that … umm, no. So, like Mary, I went to the original and … still, umm, no. Mary’s comment, at least, made me feel that I wasn’t alone in my ignorance. LOL </p>

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<p>I know a couple people who won’t pick up books written from the first-person POV - for much the same reason. </p>

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<p>It worked here for me. Jacob’s returns to the past happen as he dozes. He’s not recalling the past, the past becomes the present in all its immediacy as he sleeps. (Which come to think of it may make his narration even less reliable; he’s dreaming, not retelling.) Each time he “returns” as the old Jacob to his nursing home reality, it’s from a dream state - and who dreams in the past tense.</p>

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<p>and so on …</p>

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<p>Ok, jumping in to this discussion having skimmed everyone’s comments … I read “WFE” a couple of years ago, so some of the details are a little dim. Overall I enjoyed the book as a good story. Best book I’ve ever read? Not even close. Well written? Eh – so-so. (I read this before I got my Kindle, so no phrase searches a la Mary13. Actually, now that I have a Kindle, it still doesn’t occur to me to do searches like that. :))</p>

<p>No, I didn’t see it coming that Rosie killed August. And, it didn’t really bother me that it was written in the present tense. As I said, it was just a plain ole good read, IMO. For a different local Book Club, we recently read Gruen’s newest novel, “Ape House: A Novel.” I’d say this one was just OK. Again, I learned a fair amount about something (apes) I didn’t have a lot of background on, but the story line was even more improbable that in “WFE” and the surprise twist in the story was much easier to spot ahead of time.</p>

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<p>Mary - you know that I usually follow where you lead - but in this case - for me - I think you’ll have to go out on that limb alone.</p>

<p>Sometimes an elephant is just an elephant - or perhaps, in Rosie’s case, the “elephant in the room”. :)</p>