<p>byerly, harvard has more sports programs than princeton, and they are still not as good across the board…</p>
<p><a href=“http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/nacda/sports/directorscup/auto_pdf/0506D1FinalStand.pdf[/url]”>http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/nacda/sports/directorscup/auto_pdf/0506D1FinalStand.pdf</a></p>
<p>Just to drag things back from quibbling about data to the assumption behind the quibbling, is there a suggestion here that having a lower % of varsity athletes among the male undergraduate population is somehow impressive and/or virtuous? Indicative of a greater commitment to the life of the mind? Because if that’s the contention, then Princeton and Harvard both suffer in comparison to the University of Chicago. Or, for that matter, Deep Springs.</p>
<p>I’m not sure it’s a contention that I find convincing, however.</p>
<p>I’m not aware of any such contention. It is undeniably true, however, that when a high proportion of the student body are varsity athletes, then it has an effect on campus attitudes and values. Princeton may have the highest proportion of male varsity athletes among universities at 27%, but consider that at Williams, the highly-ranked LAC, the comparable percentage is 39% !!</p>
<p>Hbarns, you make an excellent point. Byerlys numbers are, of course, incorrect, but his implication (and yours) is one with which I would heartily agree. </p>
<p>The total number of athletes (male and female) at Harvard is somewhere between 1,300 and 1,500 according to campus publications (this includes varsity and junior-varsity athletes but all have been recruited at least in part for their sports abilities). With 6,613 undergraduates, this amounts to approximately 20 to 23% of the student body. </p>
<p>(see <a href=“http://www.digitas.harvard.edu/~perspy/old/issues/2001/may/govjocks.html[/url]”>http://www.digitas.harvard.edu/~perspy/old/issues/2001/may/govjocks.html</a> and <a href=“http://www.harvardmag.com/issues/so97/ivy.2.html[/url]”>http://www.harvardmag.com/issues/so97/ivy.2.html</a> )</p>
<p>Harvard has 41 varsity sports teams, the largest number (I believe) in the Ivy League. </p>
<p>By comparison, Princeton has a slightly smaller number of varsity teams at 38 and about 2/3s as many athletes amounting to approximately 25% of the student body (a percentage that, as I have pointed out, will soon be declining).</p>
<p>Even with the presence of 30% to 50% more athletes on campus ( around 1,000 at Princeton and 1,300 to 1,500 at Harvard), no one would argue that Harvard is any less focused on academics than Princeton. </p>
<p>The same should certainly be said of Williams, one of the finest schools in the country. Williams, of course is much smaller than Princeton and dramatically smaller than Harvard. In trying to field a full range of varsity teams, it will necessarily have a higher percentage of athletes than either of the other two schools, yet its focus on academics makes it widely regarded as one of the best choices for undergraduate education in the United States. Schools without athletic teams almost certainly have a different atmosphere but I suspect much of this is a stylistic difference rather than a substantive one.</p>
<p>Athletes from these and other competitive schools have gone on to notable careers in business, government and law and I do believe that the habits of personal discipline and time management which are so critical for undergraduate athletes can give them a number of lifetime advantages in the competitive marketplace. While there are certainly some athletes who do not contribute to the life of the mind as you put it, there are many others who do.</p>
<p>Back onto the topic…</p>
<p>One misconception is that we are just a walking J Crew ad. And that is not true at all. Students wear all sorts of clothing including Lacoste, Polo Ralph Lauren, Le Tigre, Banana Republic, and the occasional Abercromie and Fitch. :)</p>
<p>don’t forget Brooks Brother’s</p>
<p>Well it’s great to know that every polo shirt runs $70 at Princeton.</p>
<p>As I said, 27% of Princeton’s male undergraduates are varsity athletes - a larger proportion than any other university in the nation. Period.</p>
<p>Byerly, while I consider you among the most valuable posters on the forum at large for your data and arguments, on this matter, I must concede, there is zero substantiation. So far, you’ve only cited your own post.</p>
<p>Oh dear. </p>
<p>Byerly, you previously stated that the proportion of male athletes among the student body at Princeton was higher than [at] any other elite university. </p>
<p>Now your claim has expanded to a larger proportion than [at] any other university in the nation. Period. </p>
<p>Though I think Im more supportive of scholar-athletes than you seem to be Im still hoping your next claim wont be highest in the universe! That WOULD make us a little unbalanced!</p>
<p>Look friends, the figure for all recruited athletes (male and female, varsity and junior varsity) at Princeton is just as Ive stated it and as the citations show, somewhere in the range of 22% to 25% depending on the sources cited. At Harvard, the comparable figures range from 19% to 23%. Harvard actually has more athletes. The difference in percentages is due entirely to Princetons small size and desire to compete in the same sports as its peers. Ive provided all the citations above so I wont repeat them here and I apologize to the readers of this thread for its tediousness. </p>
<p>Of course athletes are full citizens at Princeton, just as they are at Harvard and few restrict their activities just to athletics. Youll find student athletes in dramatic performances, debating societies and, yes, even among the rolls of Rhodes Scholars! Still, all colleges strive for a dynamic balance of interests and talents. For example, Princeton has long been heavy on the engineering/science side of the scale and is now moving to expand its student body to make room for more students in the arts and humanities. Interestingly, Yale, which has long had a large number of students interested in the arts and humanities, is now trying to lure more interested in the hard sciences. </p>
<p>As to misconceptions, certainly the most prevalent (and the one repeated most eagerly by Princetons detractors) is that Princeton is the college described by F. Scott Fitzgerald in This Side of Paradise, a WASPish, preppy place of strong class distinctions. Though there is something dreamy about Fitzgeralds descriptions of the physical beauty of the place, socially, Princeton is nothing like the world he knew. Today, Princeton is a place of great diversity with students from all parts of the world and from all social backgrounds. (By the way, if you knew me personally and something about my family background, you would lay those stereotypes to rest immediately!)</p>
<p>This last academic year many people holding onto these outdated stereotypes must have been shocked to see Princeton identified in national magazine surveys as one of the strongest and most inviting schools in the country for both African-American and Latino students. As noted in a current thread, Princeton was also just identified as one of the twenty most supportive campuses in the country for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender students. (see: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=2765010&postcount=1[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=2765010&postcount=1</a> )</p>
<p>The range of family incomes is very broad. My own parents were unable to provide any significant financial support and Princeton picked up nearly the entire tab. Today, Princetons financial aid program is unsurpassed. Other schools, including Harvard, have excellent financial aid but still require students to take out loans to cover their expenses. Princeton has done away with student loans entirely so that all aid is in the form of grants which do not need to be paid back.</p>
<p>Some things remain constant. Princetons campus is breathtakingly beautiful and timeless. Students study hard but also find time for involvement in a wide array of activities. As at any of the competitive colleges, you will find that there is never enough time during the day for all of the things you would like to do. In short, its an exhausting paradise.</p>
<p>When I applied to college, I was accepted at Princeton, Harvard, Yale, Stanford and a number of others. Any of them would have been wonderful places to study. I had my own concerns about Princeton prior to visiting but all those concerns vanished once I met the students and spoke with the very accessible professors. Stereotypes and misconceptions mingle with intentional distortions on the part of detractors of each of these schools.</p>
<p>Open your mind. Visit Princeton if you can. If your experience is anything like mine, youll fall in love.</p>