<p>Monydad said about going to an elite college, "1) People who don’t know you personally will presume that you are smart. </p>
<p>2) you can forever feel good about this achievement. Especially when someone seems impressed by it."</p>
<p>I agree.</p>
<p>Strange ideas. I can’t imagine having a lasting concern about where I went to school or who is impressed by the school’s name. I can’t imagine being concerned about someone deciding I am smart based on a school’s name.</p>
<p>I went to school to be stimulated and to learn and to be around others with different approaches but similar goals.</p>
<p>The consensus on this thread seems to be that the benefits are more intangible (confidence, challenging environment, etc.) than tangible (salaries after graduation.)</p>
<p>Northstarmom said, "Instead, the faculty/administration can focus on creating a campus atmosphere that literally allows students to run with their talents and interests. </p>
<p>An example: In the student newspapers of the second/third tier colleges that I advised, the faculty was telling journalism majors not to work to hard at the student newspapers because their gpas may be hurt. These were students who were putting in perhaps 15 hours max a week to produce thin weekly newspapers. The students also often were getting class credit for the work they did at the papers. Depending on the school, some of the students were getting paid $1,000-$5,000 a semester for their work.</p>
<p>By comparison, Harvard produces a daily newspaper, and students spend up to 30 hours a week in unpaid positions to produce the newspaper. None of the students are journalism majors. Most get no pay. Most do not plan to enter journalism careers. They get no course credit for their work. They have to compete to get unpaid jobs at the student paper, and hundreds of students try out for those jobs. They do this for the pure joy of it."</p>
<p>I had no idea this was exclusive to elite colleges. Wow. Hundreds of kids just doing jobs for the joy of it.
I thought that was the problem with students at non-elite schools. They just do things for the joy of it and don’t work hard enough.</p>
<p>Doesn’t the Univ of Arizona have one of the best student run newspapers in the country? I guess everyone is paid or they are all going to be journalists.</p>
<p>How about if you go to an elite school that nobody in your area has heard of? Such as Carleton, Haverford, WUSTL, Pomona, etc?</p>
<p>"I had no idea this was exclusive to elite colleges. Wow. Hundreds of kids just doing jobs for the joy of it.
I thought that was the problem with students at non-elite schools. They just do things for the joy of it and don’t work hard enough elsewhere.</p>
<p>Doesn’t the Univ of Arizona have one of the best student run newspapers in the country? I guess everyone is paid or they are all going to be journalists.“”</p>
<p>U of Arizona has an outstanding journalism program and an excellent student newspaper. Their students win some major mainstream awards including some of the awards known as the College Pulitzers.</p>
<p>I have not visited U of A’s journalism school, so the following is based on conjecture.</p>
<p>Usually excellent journalism departments are majors that students have to apply to get accepted to. Consequently, they attract highly motivated, very intelligent students. Also, usually accredited journalism programs (as U of A has) require their journalism students to work for the student newspaper. They may get course credit also for the work. They also probably have a faculty advisor. I know that U of Missouri’s excellent student newspaper even has professional journalists who edit the paper.</p>
<p>Most students on the Harvard newspaper are not planning to be journalists (last I visited it, about 6 years ago, the editor in chief was planning a career in something like international relations), and no students are getting course credit for working there. There are no faculty advisors. Yet, students clamor to work there. Students even have to go through a several week competition in order to get selected for the staff, and many students are rejected. When I was at Harvard, a student who was rejected had a parent who was the head of a country. The student ended up being the head of a country a couple of decades after graduating from Harvard.</p>
<p>Anyway, I think the difference is that at places like Harvard, students are more likely to spend tons of time doing intellectual/arts/service ECs – not because those things are related to their majors/career aspirations, but just for the pure fun of it. They also do these things more independently than such things are done at most other universities, which have faculty advisors working with students on ECs.</p>
<p>The Ivy and similar students are more likely to be able to juggle such demanding ECs and graduate on time. When my S was at a university with an excellent school newspaper, he spent at least 30 hours a week happily working there. Unfortunately, he didn’t go to class, and flunked out after freshman year. Most of the people whom he introduced me to at the student newspaper also were working extremely hard at the paper, but had abysmal gpas. For instance, S just told me about a student who was a junior there several years ago, who just managed to graduate! He did a great job, however, at the award-winning student paper!</p>
<p>I concur with edad. My h is a chemical engineer who has done very well in terms of having a challenging, stimulating, well-paying career despite having gone to a school the name of which would make the eyes of most posters on this board glaze over. I have never heard him determine someone’s smartness based on where the person went to college. Quite the contrary, in fact. He respects people for their ability at the job they do and how well they do it. It has nothing to do with their alma mater.</p>
<p>Also, I have to take issue with the idea that there is no “passion” to be found at “lesser” schools. Though my son is an IT major at a flagship u, he has spent countless hours working lighting design for theatre (as he did in high school) solely because he loves it. I am certain (based on my own observation) that this happens all the time at other schools around the country of lesser “tier.” </p>
<p>I have also known quite a few ivy graduates who, though very nice people, have actually accomplishing little in their lives other than having graduated from that particular ivy. And I wonder how grade inflation fits into this now? I have read many accounts that it is harder to enter these schools than it is to graduate from them. I believe this is currently a bigger problem at the top rated schools than at ones rated somewhat lower, based on articles I’ve read.</p>
<p>No one has said that there’s no intellectual passion at schools that are not HPYS. It’s just that there are fewer students with intellectual passion and a passion to pursue intellectual ECs. That’s because most colleges accept most students who meet their academic standards. They don’t have the deep applicant pool to also select based on ECs, demonstrated passion and similar criteria. If a student has high stats, most colleges in the country would be glad to have them.</p>
<p>When it comes to the importance of the prestige factor and self confidence factor that some have gotten from attending a place like an Ivy, those things may not be that important to people who are more naturally self confident or who rely more on their own opinions than on others’ opinions. For some, I guess it could be worth being $40,000 in debt to go to an Ivy. That could make a big difference in what they choose to do with their lives. Other people may have the natural self confidence and assertiveness end up at the same destination without the Ivy factor.</p>
<p>And, certainly, not all Ivy grads are people who are assertive or strive to make any kind of positive difference where they are. The universities do, however, I think try to choose students who’ll demonstrate some kind of leadership at some level of society, even if its through their local PTA. I also think that this is more likely to hold true for the more recent graduates than for people who graduated before the 1970s because before then, legacy and going to the right private school were much more important admission factors than they are now.</p>
<p>D got accepted into Duke. Since U Mich is in-state for us, is the extra expense worth it? Intended major- BME
Thanks</p>
<p>qmom,
you’ll get more feedback if you start a new thread on your topic. You can do this by going back to Parents Forum and scrolling down to the “new thread” button on the bottom left. It also would be good if you described more about your teen including what they want in a college education and what their career aspirations are. Do they plan to eventually live outside of Michigan? That’s another big consideration.</p>
<p>Northstarmom said, “No one has said that there’s no intellectual passion at schools that are not HPYS. It’s just that there are fewer students with intellectual passion and a passion to pursue intellectual ECs.”</p>
<p>That’s it. 4 schools? </p>
<p>Since you’ve been writing about student newspapers, let me get this straight. If I work 30 hours a week at the student newspaper at Harvard, I am pursuing an intellectual passion. If I do the same thing at a no-name college, I’m not.</p>
<p>'Northstarmom said, “No one has said that there’s no intellectual passion at schools that are not HPYS. It’s just that there are fewer students with intellectual passion and a passion to pursue intellectual ECs.”</p>
<p>That’s it. 4 schools? </p>
<p>Since you’be been writing about student newspapers, let me get this straight. If I work 30 hours a week at the student newspaper at Harvard, I am pursuing an intellectual passion. If I do the same thing at a no-name college, I’m not."</p>
<p>Of course that 's not what I said. </p>
<p>If a student is working 30 hours a week at a student newspaper to get course credit, yes, they are demonstrating less passion than is a student who is doing the same thing despite having to take a full load of unrelated classes. The students who are in journalism schools are likely to either get course credit or direct career enhancement by working for student newspapers. That’s not the case at places like HPY, which lack journalism majors and which also in general don’t have many students who plan to be journalists. Those students work many hours in student media despite juggling full loads of unrelated courses and despite the fact that the faculty will not be impressed by their journalism work.</p>
<p>I mention the HPY in particular because I’m very familiar with those schools and those are top schools in which demonstrated intellectual passion as well as demonstrated leadership are important part of their admission process (as are, of course, having good stats, something that 80% of Harvard applicants have). I also worked for Harvard’s newspaper and when I was a corporate recruiter, I recruited students from PY for newspaper internships.</p>
<p>Journalism students who work hard at student newspapers get a lot of recognition from faculty, and their work also can help them get things like in-house merit scholarships and summer internships in the journalism field. For most students who are on newspapers at places like HPY, those kind of perks are nonexistent. They aren’t even interested in the internships because they don’t plan to become journalists.</p>
<p>“If a student is working 30 hours a week at a student newspaper to get course credit, yes, they are demonstrating less passion than is a student who is doing the same thing despite having to take a full load of unrelated classes.”</p>
<p>You can’t measure a person’s passion by whether a person gets units for it.</p>
<p>You talk about HPY, because you know HPY. Those schools are filled with intellectually-minded students. That doesn’t mean other schools aren’t full of intellectually minded students. We are not talking about mutual exclusivity. </p>
<p>Most of the kids that get into HPY from my kid’s high school are not the top students. They are the best rowers. :)</p>
<p>If a person gets a job out of doing something, that doesn’t make the person less passionate. If I want to be a professional opera singer and I do everything I can to meet that goal, I’m not less passionate about opera singing than somebody that studies it 30 hours a week for the fun if it. In fact, it is probably the opposite.</p>
<p>Northstarmom, I want to correct an erroneous impression that you have left with many readers here. Many (not all, but many) of the kids you describe working at the newspapers at HYP are doing it because the Crimson, YDN, etc. are known as “ticket punchers” for recruiters from the top strategy consulting firms, the top tier fellowships, and the top law schools. It is naive to look at the enormous time commitment these kids show, as well as their prodigious output, and ascribe their motives to pure love of journalism. True, these schools don’t have journalism majors. But they have something better-- a well-oiled path to elite roles in our society.</p>
<p>There are for sure kids who demonstrate their passions by their extreme, 30 hour plus commitment to their college EC’s. There are also kids who have learned from the class ahead of them that the easiest path to a Truman, Marshall, U Chicago Law School, or job at BCG lies in an editorial position at the Crimson.</p>
<p>C’mon.</p>
<p>I don’t think anyone is saying it is a black and white matter as to kids with passions and achievements outside the classroom being only at selective colleges and not less selective ones. I think kids like this exist at all colleges. It is simply that there seems to be a higher percentage of types like this at the most selective schools. To attend these, you pretty much have to have these attributes. At less selective colleges, there are plenty who pursue outside passions and achieve highly and lead and all that, but I don’t think it is the same majority to a degree.(nor is it as required to get admitted) I think the student bodies as a whole differ but that there are kids like this everywhere. As I said before, there are also slackers at elite institutions. </p>
<p>I just think there is a larger percentage of types at one of the other type of campus but it is not an absolute difference. There are some very accomplished types at any school. I have taught at low tiered schools and there simply are less kids like this there but surely there are SOME. They were in the minority. I know standouts from our HS who are now at our state university…some are in the Honors College. They are not the typical students there and likely are the standouts there.</p>
<p>“Northstarmom, I want to correct an erroneous impression that you have left with many readers here. Many (not all, but many) of the kids you describe working at the newspapers at HYP are doing it because the Crimson, YDN, etc. are known as “ticket punchers” for recruiters from the top strategy consulting firms, the top tier fellowships, and the top law schools.”</p>
<p>I don’t think that’s the reason. I’ve spent time not only working at the Crimson, but also talking even as recently as 6 years ago with students there. They are involved spending lots of time and effort there because they genuinely like what they’re doing. Many had worked on their own student papers in high school and had enjoyed that EC.</p>
<p>There are hundreds of other organizations at Harvard where students can get involved at an intense level. Typically, when students do participate in organizations, they do it at a deep level.</p>
<p>Philips Brooks House, for instance, is the community service organization and is run by students, most of whom probably will not enter fields directly related to service. Yet, the students create, raise the funds for and run programs that are outreach to the community. The students don’t in general get course credit for this (though some manage to do some of this as independent studies), but do it for the sheer joy.</p>
<p>The various recruiters will flock to Harvard anyway, and the recruiters know that they’ll likely find lots of students who have through extracurriculars learned important business skills. Students don’t have to have worked at the Crimson to have obtained such skills.</p>
<p>You’ve missed my point… of course you don’t have to work at the Crimson to gain those skills… but it isn’t a coincidence that more kids in top roles at the Crimson end up in strategy consulting firms or investment banks than they do in dental school. Surely some of the aspiring dentists at Harvard like to write??? However, the Crimson isn’t a huge tip at dental or med school… and it is a huge tip for some of these other organizations.</p>
<p>Blossom, that may be very true about those who write for the Harvard Crimson or Yale Daily News. You have a point…they will be sought after. It looks good for grad school and employment, though I don’t doubt they are still doing it for the love of it. </p>
<p>But this is not true of all college EC endeavors. For instance, let’s say a kid devotes 25 hours per week to the college musical but has an unrelated major and no aspirations to go into theater. They have to truly love it to participate. There is no long term benefit for graduate school admissions or employment (other than there are skills one learns when particpating in such endeavors that can apply to many areas). </p>
<p>My D is on her college alpine ski team. In fall semester, this involves 12 hours per week. In spring semester, this involves…most of the winter break full time (3 1/2 weeks away at training camp), 12 hours on weekdays and the ENTIRE weekend away at events every single weekend, plus one week of missed classes for National Championships. So most weeks of spring semester, she is involved 60 hours per week with her team. She won’t be ski racing in graduate school and so this is the end of the line for her as a ski racer. It surely doesn’t remotely relate to any of her career aspirations, architecture. There is no benefit to her participation other than to satisfy her lifelong passion. She is now funding a ten day training camp herself with some of her peers in June at Mt. Hood…because she wants more training to improve for next year. None of this is directly related to getting ahead in her education or career (other than intangibles for herself).</p>
<p>I think a strong case can be made that the greatest advantage provided by elite schools is the concentration of very bright and skilled students which creates an intellectual environment that is a formative experience in its own right. I think the networking thing is real, but as has been pointed out this varies regionally and you will find strong networks among Penn State alumni as well.</p>
<p>As to journalism: If you don’t think a lot of HYP (and other elite school students) intend to go into journalism, click on the bios for some of the contributors at NYT, WaPo, New Republic, Time, Newsweek, major networks, etc. There’s a whole lot of HYP et al. there, and they didn’t need no stinkin’ journo degree to get in the door…a lot of the people volunteering at the student publications know full well that they’re creating a portfolio that will supplement a resume some day.</p>
<p>A certain CCer I know with a flair for writing spends a great many hours producing sophisticated pieces for her elite school paper (school doesn’t have a journo degree, either) which have gotten her noticed at the highest levels of media–and I mean the highest–before she’s even completed her first year of college. Might have happened at Big State University, but I doubt it.</p>