<p>There was a similar discussion on an Asian-American website years ago:</p>
<p><a href=“http://goldsea.com/Air/Issues/Ivy/ivy_20801.html[/url]”>http://goldsea.com/Air/Issues/Ivy/ivy_20801.html</a></p>
<p>Notice how “Hank” and his friends had difficulty finding jobs because of their Ivy degrees.</p>
<p>SBMom, if you are really an Ivy grad, you would know plenty of people who work in retail and food services. I know one Yale alumna (English major) who spent 15 years paying off her student loans working as a cashier at a bookstore.</p>
<p>Anyway, an article from 2003, an especially tough year for college grads:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/26/business/yourmoney/26ivys.html?ex=1383714000&en=29b22d5e1fbe7bf5&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/26/business/yourmoney/26ivys.html?ex=1383714000&en=29b22d5e1fbe7bf5&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND</a></p>
<p>^ so what is your point??</p>
<p>I can site several other isolated anecdotal examples which would prove something else.</p>
<p>Here’s an interesting thread that didn’t seem to get too much notice. It has articles which compare some class sizes between some privates and some publics.</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=2390617&posted=1#post2390617[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=2390617&posted=1#post2390617</a></p>
<p>"^ so what is your point??</p>
<p>I can site several other isolated anecdotal examples which would prove something else."</p>
<p>Isolated examples? I know about 50 people from my high school who went to the Ivies. There IS one very successful venture capitalist. There are about 30 working at minimum wage or very low level jobs, years after finishing college. The rest are stuck somewhere in between as “freelancers”, etc.</p>
<p>If you have the stats to get into an Ivy, you’re better off attending a community college if you just want to work and make money.</p>
<p>
What you say is likely true but that free ride at MEGA U is mighty nice, especially for those who don’t qualify for financial aid.</p>
<p>50 people sample size ???</p>
<p>CautiousPessimism, how many motivated students graduate from high school each year?</p>
<p>Out of the 3+ million students that graduate each year, I’d like to think there are enough around to fill up the IVY’s, other elite schools, and with enough left over to have an impact at other schools.</p>
<p>Some people may thrive in a sea of motivated students. Others thrive in situations where only a few fellow students are motivated. Others get their motivation from within and could care less about the surrounding students.</p>
<p>So while I agree that some schools have more motivated students than others, I don’t think it is necessary for a fulfilling, interesting life to go to one of these schools. If I’m one of those people that wants to be surrounded by motivated people, sure why not try to go to one of these schools?</p>
<p>We have a great public high school where we live and a great private high school where we live. It amuses me to watch the kids. They go through 8th grade together and then some go to the public high school, others go to the private high school. </p>
<p>The experiences the kids have are different. The private school pays more attention to the students. It is easier for a kid to be on a sports team. When a kid has a problem, the private school is on it. They do have a few activities with famous people that the public school doesn’t have. The private school has a few more kids going to elite private colleges, but the top 100 public high school kids do very well too. Money plays a part in this, the private school kids come from richer families on average and are more likely to be able to afford the private colleges. </p>
<p>Some people think this is worth 30,000 a year for high school. That’s fine. The kids are getting a great education.</p>
<p>There are downsides. Most are social. </p>
<p>The part that amuses me is the kids that are smart when they enter the private and public schools are still smart when they exit. Those that aren’t smart when they enter either high school, still aren’t.</p>
<p>Those that are motivated at both schools end up doing the best.</p>
<p>I don’t see colleges as very different.</p>
<p>I have a friend whose daughter goes to Stanford. She went to the public high school mentioned above. She was pulled aside and the professor told her she was the best writer in the class. Not the boarding school students, or the other students from other private schools, she was the best writer.</p>
<p>My nephew goes to Stanford. He went to a very mediocre public high school. He’s doing OK at Stanford. Last I heard, his gpa is 3.9.</p>
<p>If public high school kids can thrive at elite colleges, I don’t know, my thinking is college kids that don’t go to elite colleges can thrive in life.</p>
<p>And if that is not the case, then many of my neighbors should get the **** out of my neighborhood. Who do they think they are, living near me? :)</p>
<p>“NSM-- my comment about ‘artsy’ was for a job in film (not in art). Connections are very important in this sort of field, because the entry level jobs are essentially clerical/secretarial/gofer jobs that do not really even require a college education if you are smart, efficient, and can type.”</p>
<p>Then, I’d think that it would help to have gone to one of the country’s best film schools such as UCLA, FSU or similar colleges. I met 2 thirtysomething folks this weekend who had worked in film directing commercials and similar projects. One went to some religious college in Indiana that I’d never heard of. The other went to college at, I think, Georgia State. One had worked on films in CHicago and LA, the other had done that in Atlanta. No evidence that either had come from a family with film connections, but somehow they’d managed to find work in a tough field.</p>
<p>“Out of the 3+ million students that graduate each year, I’d like to think there are enough around to fill up the IVY’s, other elite schools, and with enough left over to have an impact at other schools.”</p>
<p>If PSAT is any measure, only 16,000 (.5%) of those kids are National Merit Scholars each year. The numbers may be higher at state U, but top schools have higher percentage of those kids.</p>
<p>I think CautiousPessimism is an 18 year old going to one of the top school. Don’t you think her logic and reasoning is far beyond lots of 18 year olds who go to state U?</p>
<p>“I don’t see colleges as very different.”</p>
<p>Let me offer my personal example. Last summer my son borrowed a math book from a kid who goes to a second tier school (we recruit there heavily). He wanted to self study math because: (1) to be entertained after working at Walmart, and (2) wanted to be competitive with kids from top publics and private - he went to a podunk high. He found that the book from a second tier school was a two semester book. His math text book was harder and the course was only one semester.</p>
<p>I agree with you that there are many many bright kids at state Us. However, I will disagree that the rigor of curriculum is the same.</p>
<p>Dstark, what you wrote in post #408 is very true. A person is the same person no matter where she went to school. So, yeah, my kids also went to a public school. In fact, it is a school where 2/3’s go onto 4 year colleges. Both go to private selective colleges (ok, this thread seems focuses on Ivies, even though the subject heading was “top colleges” and that is more what I have been discussing but for those talking just Ivy, OK, one of mine goes to an Ivy, the other to a top program in her field that has a more selective admit rate than other D’s Ivy). All that you say is true about the high school environments. And there are bright kids who will go on to successful lives from either environment. I think that is true of whether you go to an elite/top college or state U or many other levels of colleges. If you’re gonna make it, you’re gonna. If you’re not, you’re not. That is not so dependent on the name of your school. </p>
<p>But to me, it is a choice of where you will attend. We sent our kids to the public school. WE don’t have private high schools in my neck of the woods. We were not interested in sending them away to private boarding schools, nor could afford to do so even if we wanted to. So, my oldest public school kid is now at Brown. Not many in our community head to Brown. She was the only kid in the graduating clsxs to go to any Ivy school in her year. I can think of one older kid who is at Brown, the val from two years before she was val. But now one is going next year, but his family sent him away to a prep boarding school first. Both are ending up at the same college. But to me it is just a matter of which school you wish to attend, provided you have a choice. My kid had a free ride at the State U, Honors College, but she had never intended to even apply because as good as that school is and many top kids from our HS go there, the school did not fit many of her personal college criteria. She didn’t pick Brown because it would lead to more money or a more successful life. The school just fit her better in terms of the experience. I don’t doubt that some prep private HS would have fit her better too, and some boarding performing arts HS would have been heaven to my younger kid (we don’t have performing arts high schools in our state), but both more than survived our local public school…they made the most of it, challenged themselves further, had some accomodations for their needs and sought things outside of the school as well. It wasn’t the ideal school but they made the most of it and have done just fine. They got to mix with an economically diverse group of kids. There are advantages/disadvantages to all the choices/options. For college, they just really wanted to spend four years at schools that offered what they wanted to do in environments best suited to them. They would have been all right at some school that wasn’t ideal, just like they were at our public HS but we gave them this option and they chose schools that really met their college preferences in several areas.</p>
<p>Viewpoint, you seem to be discussing the “worth” of an Ivy education only in terms of what job you can get and how much money you can make when you graduate. I don’t see it that way AT ALL and it never went into my own decision making when I was choosing schools, nor when my kids did. I don’t think an Ivy education necessarily equates with a better job or success or with making more money at all. People can become rich coming out of the lowest tier colleges. People can take on low paying jobs coming out of the most elite colleges. As far as success, many don’t measure that in income. Success comes in all forms and can be had no matter where you go to college. I went to a selective college and also to an Ivy for grad school. I entered a low paying field. I don’t make much. I have a child at a very selective program in her field. Her field is low paying and is risky and uncertain if she will ever get work and even if she does, it is not consistant work (musical theater). My other kid is going into architecture and will have to go to grad school for that. It is not necessarily a high paying field either. The jury is out whether either kid will be a success but if they do become one, it won’t be because of the name of their colleges but because of who they are. We also will be paying back loans for years to come for these educations. But they chose their schools soley because they felt they fit those schools well and now that they attend, it does appear to be a superb match for each of them. Could they be happy at lesser schools? Surely. Could they become the same success that they will from these schools, likely so. But that is not what figured into picking these schools. These schools just matched their needs and interests really well. The kinds of kids they mix with is VERY different than their home friends from public school. They love their home friends but they are simply different types. My kids are very stimulated in their college learning environments. They did well at public school and it was just fine. They simply are much more enthused by the schools they are in now. Each of their respective colleges are a better fit than their high school was, not that it was a bad place. </p>
<p>But the examples you are giving of Yalies who are cashiers or waiters…so what? Nobody said going to Yale was a ticket to a higher income. My kids never thought of that factor when picking colleges. I even have a kid who applied to Yale. I even have a kid who could end up being a waitress alongside auditioning for theater. It would not devalue her education. Education is not just about what level of income you will attain. Education is part of just being a person. The worth of a more elite school or a higher tuition school is not in the income pay off down the road. It is just if the school really is appealing as a fit and you are willing to pay for it somehow, it’s good for goodness sake, not so you can make more money some day. You’re either gonna make it or not…you often need an education to do well in many fields, but where you get it is not paramount to success. It sure is nice to really like the place where you get the education and to feel stimulated there. That last thing, in my view, is priceless.</p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Simba, I’m not even going to argue about the PSAT test.</p>
<p>I bet CautiousPessimism is very bright. Optimists do better in life, so cautious pessimism, change your outlook.</p>
<p>I don’t remember arguing that different schools had the same academic rigor.</p>
<p>“I don’t see colleges as very different.”</p>
<p>Alas, they are. My son has noticed that his 2 1/2 years at MIT seem to have taught him about double what his friends have learned in 3 years at UWash. His three calculus courses (3 semesters) would be two years (6 quarter courses) at UWash, as just one example. As he said recently, if he’d gone to UW, he’d be done by now–and for about 1/3rd the price—but he never would have had the chance to work in some of the labs at MIT.</p>
<p>A few years back, I wanted physics teaching certification from Washington state. They readily accepted my Physics 1 and 2 courses from MIT (as equivalent to Physics 101 and 102), but I had to find matching courses for my Physical Chemistry (required of all undergrad chem or bio majors) course in the catalog of a WA university. It took two 3 credit semester courses at WA’s public universities, one at the three-hundred level and one at the five-hundred level (grad school) to match that one semester sophomore-level MIT course.</p>
<p>“Education is not just about what level of income you will attain. Education is part of just being a person.”</p>
<p>very true. Education is not just a fancy diploma. If my memory serve me right, to educate means to pull from within. Top schools may do a better job of pulling a kid than a mega state U.</p>
<p>Simba wrote:
“I agree with you that there are many many bright kids at state Us. However, I will disagree that the rigor of curriculum is the same.”</p>
<p>That says it in a nutshell for me as to one of the appeals of my children’s selective colleges. I have taught at five colleges in my state. I have high standards as a teacher. But the level of the work of the students OVERALL (there were several exceptions) was not high and the expectations at the college were not high and the rigor of the work I seemed to be allowed to assign was not high. Many wre not motivated and many did poor work. There were some real gems but they were the exception. Due to the level of the students, the coursework goes down some notches. The level of discussion goes down a LOT of notches…many never said a word in class and just bided their time, doing the minimum. I recall some poor writers who put so little into their assignments…and at the time, my own children were in elementary school and producing far better papers than these college students were. If my kids, now college age, had to go to this college with these students, they would not enjoy it. My kids CRAVE challenge. They complain when work is too easy or there is nothing new in the class. The level of classes in some lower tiered colleges, along with the level of output by many in those classes is not the same as at a top college. it just isn’t. To me, it is exactly like tracking in our high school. The kids in the honors classes were different types of learners than the kids in the easy classes. They also got many hours of homework per night and the kids in the easy classes barely had any homework and just hung out after school why my kids first had up to five hours of ECs after school each day and another 3-4 hours of homework per night. Different kinds of course work, different kinds of learners/students. Different levels of college are like that too.</p>
<p>“Simba, I’m not even going to argue about the PSAT test.”</p>
<p>One can not argue in abstract. Whether you like it or not - PSAT is a test and top 0.5% (from each state) of the test takers are the National Merit Finalist, and half of them become National Merit Scholar.</p>
<p>If you have another measure let us talk about that.</p>
<p>Simba, I am not arguing in the abstract. I find the PSAT test to have very little merit so I don’t want to argue about it.</p>
<p>That’s not abstract.</p>
<p>There are plenty of people at the IVYs that aren’t NMS. They must be dummies.</p>
<p>I’m done with the PSAT.</p>
<p>“I find the PSAT test to have very little merit so I don’t want to argue about it.”</p>
<p>unless you have some data to support it, you are basing your arguement on an abstract perception.</p>
<p>drossel: post # 395: I enjoyed it. I enjoy finding sensitivity on here if/when I can find it. :)</p>
<p>“Viewpoint, you seem to be discussing the “worth” of an Ivy education only in terms of what job you can get and how much money you can make when you graduate. I don’t see it that way AT ALL”</p>
<p>I would argue that the attitude of going to an elite school to get a higher income is exactly what the Ivies shy away from. Yeah, some students pick Ivies and other elite schools because they think it will up their chances for a med school acceptance or get them a top salary, but most go for the liberal arts education. Period. They want a broad education that allows for both specialization and exploration. While they know that they’ll have to support themselves eventually, they don’t choose their schools based on future earnings. Students who go to even slightly lower ranked universities, especially those with professional schools, tend to be more focused on that. For example, I’ve read threads here that have explicitly asked which school has better job placement/starting salaries, and the parents/students are basing their final decisions largely on the stats. (The threads comparing Lehigh/Bucknell/Villanova come to mind, but I’m sure there are others.) </p>
<p>An Ivy league education is not a practical education. Most do not offer undergraduate business degrees or marketing degrees. Most have distributive requirments that force a student to gain knowledge in areas radically different from the major. You really have to appreciate this kind of education before you can appreciate the Ivies and like-minded schools. It’s not for everyone. Some think that the reason for going to college is to get a job, and some think that the reason for going to college is to learn as much as you can <em>before</em> you get a job. It’s a matter of perspective.</p>
<p>Although my daughter is not going to an Ivy, hubby and I, being hardcore supporters of multiple Ivies, value the traditional liberal arts course of study as a means of maturing the mind and its sensibilities. We do not begrudge (or belittle) those who think that a college is primarily training for employment. We have told our d. that she should keep in mind that she will be supporting herself and should study something that could lead toward a career (either via grad school or immediately after a BA), but that we expect her to experiment with different subjects. That’s what the liberal arts, perfected by the Ivies but also mimicked by many others, are supposed to be.</p>
<p>I think the real argument here has become whether there are lifetime advantages of attending a liberal arts college. We seem to be talking about about the Ivies versus state schools instead of including more professionally-oriented top universities such as Johns Hopkins, Carnegie Mellon, and MIT.</p>