<p>That’s fine to go to college to prep for a good job. Or to pursue a particular interest in the arts or whatever. But if we’re talking EDUCATION, core is necessary. Those of us who went to big name colleges without a core needlessly feel stupid when references are made to, say, Abraham Lincoln or Karl Marx, and we don’t know who they are talking about. (Again, hyperbole, but get the point.) Everyone knows the game re distribution requirements: what is the easiest/least boring class I can take to fulfill the ____ requirement? Need I say more??</p>
<p>If anyone has read the ‘Choosing the Right College’ guide–meaning, the intro material and a fair number of the school profiles–and is still convinced that core curriculum is bad/not necessary, please share with us on the thread here. (And ping me so I’ll know to look. Thanks.)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Your words.</p>
<p>You can skate around them however you see fit, but you cannot honestly tell me that selecting NYU was made completely independent of any potential career payoff. That’s all I was saying.</p>
<p>Ovidia, my kids did not fear state U! </p>
<p>D1 got a free ride to State U, and also selected as one of 100 in the Honors College. Her best friend went (free tuition, father works there and has three D’s as undergrads there at one time) and many of the top students in our school attend (the val the year before my D goes). Simply, my D did not want to go to college in Vermont because she had lived here her whole life and wanted to try a different area in contrast, and be near a city (she grew up on a dirt road in the mountains in a town of 1700 people). Both of my kids would be the first to tell you that they think Burlington, VT, where UVM is located, would be such a cool place to go to college had they not grown up in VT! But my D also wanted to study architecture and UVM doesn’t offer that. She also wanted to continue ski racing in college and she could never make UVM’s team as it is one of the best in the country and many of their skiers are of the level of being on the Olympic development team, etc. and she did not want to give up her ski racing passion. She also craved the most challenging learning environment and student body she could go to because of the kind of learner she is and the hard work she did toward her goal to go to a college that had that kind of learning environment even though UVM is an excellent school where she could get an excellent education. </p>
<p>You mention hand holding vs. making your way at state U. I dunno but our state U is about the size of her Ivy in terms of the undergraduate population. Nobody holds her hand at Brown. To the contrary, at Brown, they value students taking initiative and creating their learning plans and studies. Professors are accessible. But they are also accessible at UVM. I don’t think whether she went to UVM or Brown, she’d be “fighting the masses”. Nobody has handed her anything at Brown. She is expected to have drive and initiative. Her personality is such that she is highly motivated and creates her own learning opportunities. She was like this in HS. Nobody helped or told her what to do…she went after what she wanted and forged new paths, actually. She did many independent studiesin high school. Brown also likes students of that sort. </p>
<p>At Brown, she creates a conglomeration of courses to fit her goals. She seeks out. Nobody holds her hand. I don’t think the hand holding is indicative of elite colleges at all. To the contrary, there are high expectations. Students often have drive and ambition. I have taught at much lower tier colleges and frankly, THOSE students needed hand holding. Some needed so much so that they would not flunk out. Before you think I am generalizing…I’m only talking about SOME of them, not all. My role, for some students, was to help them pass. At my D’s college, most are passing. Most are seeking further challenges beyond that which is required. My kids did that in high school as well…going beyond the HS curriculum to seek more challenge which they so craved. Even at Brown, I can think of something my D did this past week for a course. She could have written a final paper. Instead, she opted to do 3D computer designs of a building by a well known architect from Providence (this is for a Contemporary Architecture class) and the professor is creating an exhibition of this architect’s work at a gallery space and he liked my D’s project so much that he is putting it into the exhibition and has asked for her to be present at the opening reception. She didn’t HAVE to do this, but wanted the challenge, as she was learning how to use this program in a RISD course and wanted to apply it to something in this course. She could have just written a paper, involving less hours (she was up round the clock for days on this one assignment). The program was brand new for her and she wasn’t even sure she could pull this off but wanted to try. Trust me when I say that the typical students I had in my college courses that I taught at lower level schools, only did what they had to do to get by and many didn’t even do that…they didn’t get work in on time and did the bare minimum and did it poorly. Not all, but certainly many. Some did outstanding work. But just some did whatever that had to do. There are driven and motivated students at any college at any level who do not require hand holding.</p>
<p>“You can skate around them however you see fit, but you cannot honestly tell me that selecting NYU was made completely independently of any potential career payoff. That’s all I was saying.”</p>
<p>My D is getting training in a BFA in MT program because that is what is needed to go into her field, or is considered one of the best forms of preparation. But WHERE she goes to get that was based on which school she liked the best that fit her criteria. I don’t know how else to explain that. A so called “top college” isn’t an advantage to getting her career. She needs the education and training to get a career, and she can get it from many different places.</p>
<p>For instance, she got into Boston Conservatory, one of the TOP programs in her field (and other BFA programs as well), and chose NYU over BOCO because she wanted the additional liberal arts component that NYU/Tisch requires that BOCO doesn’t. Tisch requires distribution requirements and she is into other subjects even though she is not getting a liberal arts BA degree. She wanted the liberal arts component to be in a challenging college and most of the other BFA programs she got into were not in such schools even though the BFA programs themselves were VERY selective. She also likes NYC, always has, and after growing up in VT, really wanted to be in New York and had many friends who had loved the program at Tisch and so she wanted to go too. She didn’t think, “if I go to Tisch, I will get a better job than if I got to BOCO.” Both programs are highly respected in her field. Both programs end with a Senior Showcase for agents and casting directors. She simply liked NYU better than BOCO, even though she’d be thrilled to attend BOCO and was very happy to be accepted as it is very competitive to get in (10% admit rate). One was not a better ticket to a job/career than the other. Frankly, her school will not be what gets her a job. She will have to get jobs by auditioning. Many people who make it on Broadway NEVER went to college. Read the bios in the playbills.</p>
<p>In terms of career payoff, my D wanted to take training in a BFA in MT program as good preparation for her field. But which school she picked was not tied to which would get her a better job. She felt she needed and wanted training and an education. She just picked which BFA program she liked the best. But yes, ANY BFA program was gonna be good prep for an eventual career. That was my point, that they didn’t pick certain colleges as better career payoffs. They did pick to go to college in the first place so that they could be educated and normally educated people have a better chance of getting professional work down the line. But they knew they could get that preparation at any college that offered their majors. They simply crave challenging learning environments. </p>
<p>By the way, my D will probably never make a lot of money. She is going into an uncertain field and one that usually doesn’t pay that well and doesn’t have steady work. She is pursuing her passion. She is getting an education. Her school will not get her a better paying job than another BFA program would. But she does want an education and she does want the training. Those things never hurt to have. They can be gotten at many different schools.</p>
<p>SBmom, I’d like to know some big schools that have an open curriculum too.</p>
<p>Since there are schools for all types, what bothers me and others on this board is if I go to Princeton, I’m assumed to be one person, and if I go to state u, I’m assumed to be another person, even though I’m the same person at both. That assumption permeates throughout the thread.</p>
<p>I’m arguing with parents who have children at elite schools, throughout the thread, that if your child is smart and motivated they will do great in life and great at a variety of colleges and the parents of these kids are arguing that their kids have to go to “special” places. </p>
<p>Think about that.</p>
<p>Well parents, you know your kids better than I do. :)</p>
<p>I don’t think my son even needs college, but whatever. :)</p>
<p>Dear God. No one is assuming that if you go to one school you are one person etc etc. For maybe 15 minutes if I meet you when you are an adult then I might make that assumption. But you can convince me otherwise easily. But we are assuming that the education at one school vs. the education at another school will be different. I’m not arguing my kids have to go to an Ivy. I am arguing they are lucky if they can. </p>
<p>As I have said before, let’s take your argument all the way. There is no difference. Elite colleges are exactly the same as mid-tier colleges. And many many many people, intelligent, good-hearted people, looking to help their kids have a chance at an elite college, are delusional.</p>
<p>Happy now?</p>
<p>Alumother, you’re taking it all in one direction, and you want me to take it all the way in another direction? </p>
<p>I’m not going to. :)</p>
<p>Where did I say you can’t, or won’t get a great education at an IVY?</p>
<p>I think the big problem is that many kids (and their parents) cannot matriculate where they would like to go if money and getting admitted were irrelevant.</p>
<p>I see the same issues in my community about kids who go to private day or boarding schools versus kids in public schools. Here, many people would like their kids to go to these schools and do have the money to send them, but cannot get their children admitted. It creates resentment.</p>
<p>Dstark stated:
“what bothers me and others on this baord is if I go to Princeton, I’m assumed to be one person, and if I go to state u, I’m assumed to be another person, even though I’m the same person at both.”</p>
<p>I agree!
Example, my kid got into Penn and Brown. She could have gone to Lehigh or Conn College or UVM (not naming every acceptance but giving contrasts within her acceptance list). She’d be the same person had she chosen those other schools. Picking her school was about which one best fit her personal criteria. ONE of her criteria was to be at a very challenging school that was selective and where there were lots of other learners like her in terms of motivation and level. She could thrive anywhere. She could become a success no matter where she went. She felt she fit in better at some schools than others. More of her type of learner were at some schools than others, but they existed at all schools. She could have gone to her safety schools and there are likely many like her who go there. I think she found more kids like her at her reach schools. But there are surely top students at her safety schools like Lehigh. I know there are top students at UVM because I know those kids who go. But I also know several more average students who go to UVM. I don’t know any avg. students around here who could have gotten into Brown or Penn. Nobody at her high school in her year got into ANY Ivy. The student body at her high school is NOTHING like the student body at Penn or Brown, or even Princeton where she was waitlisted. </p>
<p>Top students (brightest, accomplished, etc.) exist EVERYWHERE, at every tier college. But I don’t think at every top college, a wide range of level of student exists in the student body. My D could have gone to Lehigh…she got a very large merit scholarship to attract a student like her, and a likely letter early in the process. She’d still be the same person she is now at Brown. I am not sure that every student at Lehigh could have gotten into Brown, however. The student bodies as a WHOLE differ from one school to the next. Not every individual who goes to each does, though.</p>
<p>I certainly agree with your quoted statement. I recall using it on another bulletin board myself recently! A boy I know was posting and bashing NYU/Tisch as having kids with NO talent. He was rejected there, by the way (I never understand the ones who bash schools where they had actually applied themselves, but bash them when they are rejected). He was thinking at the time of going to Boston Conservatory where he was accepted. A discussion ensued on the forum on another site where others questioned his bashing of the talent at Tisch. I told the boy in a PM that I knew who he was as he had attended my D’s theater camp last summer and he wrote back praising my D’s talents (he also is very talented himself). So, I asked, on the one hand, he thinks she is talented in musical theater but if she had gone to BOCO where she was also accepted (where I suppose he thinks the talent is real good as she was thinking of going), she’d be the same person as she is now at Tisch but he thinks the talent at Tisch sucks. I guess she’d be good if she went to BOCO? Yet, he already thinks she has talent. So, she is who she is and it isn’t a product of which school she chose to attend. But I guess since she attends Tisch, she is one of the “untalented ones” because in his view the talent at Tisch was not as good as at BOCO, or now not as good as at the school he is going to enroll in. But if she had gone there, I guess she’d be “good”. Yet, outside of where she went to college and before she even went, last summer, he thought she was quite talented. Hmmm…</p>
<p>So, I do agree with that one statement you wrote.</p>
<p>Susan, I think you agreed with me twice today. That’s pretty good. :)</p>
<p>Susan, this is not an insult. After reading about your kids for the last three years or so, I’m sure your kids are going to do well (as long as they stay out of traffic accidents). The schools are lucky to have your kids.</p>
<p>My wife has a cousin by marriage that went to Tisch, was a professional actress for many years, and for the last several years has been a great drama teacher at a private high school. </p>
<p>That last paragraph is not that meaningful, but I thought I would throw it into the post. :)</p>
<p>Hey Dstark, I’ll like ya if we agree or disagree…it is just a conversation!</p>
<p>And yes, my child’s life, let alone college and career aspirations, came very close to being taken away 14 months ago. She thankfully has a second chance at life. Further, she miraculously recovered and was able to pursue her college plans by September and still continue to perform on stage. Maybe she was meant to do this. Believe me, opening the acceptance letters in the hospital was very good medicine. Just prayed she’d survive and be able to even do it. </p>
<p>So, all this chatter about this college or that…really, it can come down to just surviving and even getting to pursue one’s goals at all. Been there, not glad I’ve done that. Then again, life is enriched by major setbacks.</p>
<p>suzievt,
I’ve been following this thread, and I think you’re one of the few people here who really gets it. As someone who chose an Ivy for the FIT NOT for the “snob factor” or the hope of getting a high-paying job I found myself nodding in agreement with your posts a few pages ago. I was considering posting, but I realized that you’ve already articulated my points very eloquently.</p>
<p>Apple Green, glad you can relate then! If the readers here who mention the snobby factor and the desire for a high paying job only knew my D who goes to an Ivy…she is the most opposite from that image as one could get! Anyone who knows her would say so. She never sought prestige. She kept quiet about college admissions in high school. Never would advertise where she was applying or got in, as she would not wish to stand out in any way. Didn’t try to become val, just did the best she could do because she likes to do her best. Did become val but it was never the goal. Never participated on CC but when she perused it once and saw the “what are my chances threads” and posts about wanting an Ivy as a college selection criteria, she could not relate. We do not live n a competitive town or they didn’t go to a competitive HS. It wasn’t a competition with others but merely a drive toward personal goals.</p>
<p>After she got her admissions offers and narrowed down her schools to three, she knocked out her acceptance to Penn, as a Ben Franklin Scholar but went back to visit Tufts and Smith which she liked better than Penn (who cares if Penn is an Ivy, the other schools fit her better in her mind). If she wanted a high paying job, I doubt she’d have picked architecture. This winter at a ski race I went to that she was at with her team from Brown, I noticed that so many racers in the lodge had on sweatshirts from their respective colleges and actually, Brown is the most “elite” or only Ivy in their league, but did she put on a Brown sweatshirt? NOPE…she put on her soccer team sweatshirt from high school and I asked why she didn’t have on her college sweatshirt like many others did and she said, “I went to public high school and proud of it!” (most of her teammates went to private schools) My kid is so not into designers and labels. You’d have to know her. I recall when she used to shop for clothing when younger and she’d get it home and cut off any labels that appeared on the clothing! Well, I could go on but you get what I mean!</p>
<p>Just curious: if a kid applies to a top/Ivy school because they think the kids at State U are slower and less motivated, is that “snob factor” or “fit”? Also, I’ll bet the admissions committees can sniff out an “I wanna go there to get a good job and get rich” applicant, and exclude such a one.</p>
<p>dstark, </p>
<p>In your opinion, how many kids-- of those who are brilliant-- are not admitted to <em>any</em> elite school, nor any top-tier public honors program, nor any top LAC, but attend a low or mid-tier school-- and because they never go on to grad school either, nor ever excel in their chosen field, they have to swim upstream <em>their whole lives</em> being misjudged as lesser based on their undergrad degree?</p>
<p>COME ON. </p>
<p>Kids who are perfectly qualified but don’t choose Ivies will find a way to rise. Late bloomers who suck in HS but figure it all out at 22 or 32 will find a way to rise. Brilliant drop outs with business acumen will find a way… And dolts from the Ivy league will find a way to fail. </p>
<p>Unless you think that the admission “sort” for a mid-tier and an elite identifies an exactly-equivalent group of 18 year olds, then the fact that an elite name gives you a little bump in first impressions only reflects reality: on the whole, kids making that elite cut have jumped over some very high bars by age 18. If this was not largely true the name brand bump would simply erode over time.</p>
<p>There is a another re-sort after grad school and yet another after 10 more years or so, when we see who has found or not found their niche, whether or not they even went to college.</p>
<p>Imagine the elite-degree-backfire that could happen if, 15 years after Yale, you are still pouring coffee and don’t have a darned good reason…</p>
<p>“Those of us who went to big name colleges without a core needlessly feel stupid when references are made to, say, Abraham Lincoln or Karl Marx, and we don’t know who they are talking about. (Again, hyperbole, but get the point.) Everyone knows the game re distribution requirements: what is the easiest/least boring class I can take to fulfill the ____ requirement? Need I say more??”</p>
<p>Today, most Ivy students are rich, “vacationing” kids who take the easiest majors (sociology, e.g.), and courses, to skate by and simply add a social credential. Concerns for high GPAS for med/law school admissions also drive even serious students to load up their curriculum with frill courses that they wouldn’t have taken even at high school level.</p>
<p>I do agree that a broad liberal arts curriculum is perhaps the best undergraduate education one could get: sadly, most Ivy kids are not getting them and don’t even want them.</p>
<p>Someone tell the emperor that he has no clothes: the Ivies are a joke.</p>
<p>someone tell tsdad that we all know he’s viewpoint.</p>
<p>Nope. 10 char</p>
<p>EDIT: whathappened to dstarks post?</p>
<p>SBmom, I deleted it because I thought about it and I don’t really know how I want to respond to your post.</p>
<p>Plus, my daughter is using up all the bandwidth in my house and is making things difficult. :)</p>