<p>I wonder if they make moles in Chinese high schools.</p>
<p>QM: I feel your pain. I get your point. I detest projects.</p>
<p>A couple of projects are fine. It’s when there are three projects per semester per class that it gets to be too much. And these projects can be done no faster (and often are done slower) by the more academically talented students. </p>
<p>I think this thread will have been very useful if it just alerts lookingforward to one more type of high school that’s out there. And perhaps to a new category of reasons that high-performing students’ EC’s might be a bit limited.</p>
<p>I would be very interested in lookingforward’s advice about what a student in a project-oriented high school ought to do, aside from changing high schools, or resigning him/herself to going to a good, but not top college, and then hoping to turn things around in a setting where the chemists are no longer saying to the class, “I know! Let’s play dolls! With stuffed moles! That you dress yourselves! Be clever!”</p>
<p>I guess I am in the minority here but my son loves projects.He is a tech kid and makes all the projects using software and computers with emphasis on unusual and/or crazy. He learned how to code, use movie editing software, make short videos etc. As a result now in high school he has a media related small paid job and an unpaid internship. His least favorite subject is math because he was never asked to “make” something. Too cut and dry in his mind, although he has good grades and gets it fine. I am not saying that those projects taught him something more on the academic subject but for sure helped keep his interest and motivation. Actually I am taking this back. Once a while in order to complete a project does go deeper. So for him it is working.</p>
<p>I know Tufts has some wacky essay/project prompts. I now picture their admissions office populated by a battalion of stuffed moles from hopeful applicants. </p>
<p>^^^
Ha ha ha… His GC suggested it as one of the schools he should consider…</p>
<p>right. </p>
<p>However, I don’t believe in assigning any projects unless they are actually serious research efforts.</p>
<p>ETA: crossposted. I was responding to QM. I am guessing students like am9799 describes will teach themselves in this way with or without the project assignment. They may be creative in bending assignments to their own purposes. One of my sons turned every project into a mini-project on a special interest of his even though it was usually a very looooooong stretch. Still, he would have been better off not constrained to the limits of the project. They weren’t the best use of his time. And if he hadn’t had a very interfering mother he probably would have been marked down for not following all the rules exactly.</p>
<p>am9799: Do you think the project inspired his interests or is this a chicken and egg question?</p>
<p>I agree that there can be too many projects, but I would point out that a very important thing for a young person to learn is that often he or she must do things that he or she considers to be a waste of time. Sometimes, it really is a waste of time, but sometimes the young person just doesn’t know what the person assigning the work knows.</p>
<p>^^
I think it is both. Last year he had to read a book for English class but he just was not interested. It was the kind of literature he never loved. He had a quiz and failed it. Thankfully the teacher offered extra credit (and I know extra credit is blamed as the downfall of education in CC) for willing student. The assignment was to make a movie of the book. Not only he reread the book and scrutinized every scene but he needed to learn a more sophisticated editing program. All I am saying is that it works for him. </p>
<p>edit: He also likes debate and mock trials and he chooses those when offered instead of a quiz or essay.</p>
<p>Hunt - We have a basic difference in educational philosophies. I believe a teacher should be able to explain why the work is not a waste of time. I don’t want any children to be conditioned to believe they must sometimes do things which are, or seem to be, a waste of time because those in authority are more knowledgeable. Maybe this is appropriate to the army. Not in a school setting imho There is a whole body of homeschooling literature dealing with this subject and the question of whether the modern school system is designed to created non-questioning factory workers. Our old friend Deresiewicz has been exploring another way this idea plays out in modern schools with his excellent sheep lectures.</p>
<p>am9799: What an excellent teacher. That is not a mole project. : )</p>
<p>I guess I’ve just known too many people who thought they were smarter than their teachers, but weren’t, really. When you’re smarter than the teacher, you will scoff at the explanation of why it’s important for you to do the “busy work” homework, etc. I agree there has to be some happy medium, but people who think they shouldn’t have to ever waste their own time don’t do very well as employees, in my experience.</p>
<p>My son does not have many projects, and those he does have are worthwhile. But I agree with @Hunt that our kids need to learn that sometimes they just have to do things they think are a waste of time (assuming that there isn’t too much actual wasted time in the school day). Learning to deal with boredom, learning to deal with frustration, learning to both lead and follow, are all life skills in my opinion. </p>
<p>" a very important thing for a young person to learn is that often he or she must do things that he or she considers to be a waste of time. " This lesson is learned in elementary school. They don’t have to keep wasting their time for years after.</p>
<p>
You must be self-employed.</p>
<p>Maybe it’s a difference of definition. In the workplace, employees are paid to sometimes do work they find boring or distasteful but which is essential to the well being of the company. I have had tedious jobs. If I understand how they fit into the bigger picture, I can find value in the work. </p>
<p>I think elementary, middle and high school students should not have make work or busy work projects to teach them to deal with boredom etc. Learning should not ever be boring. And their time at this age is too valuable. imho ymmv</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Not even then. (Says the self-employed professional filling out corporate tax forms when she’d rather be doing just about anything else.) </p>
<p>I don’t mean that students should be given boring work to teach them how to deal with boredom. I just mean that students need to understand that their own views are not the final arbiter of what is worth doing. I also think that some students need to have this understanding reinforced throughout their years of education. Some never learn it.</p>
<p>I just mean that students need to understand that their own views are not the final arbiter of what is worth doing.</p>
<p>I agree with this. But I think students have to be taught why this is true. It is a really important life lesson, right? Teachers should be able to explain the purpose behind assignments. I am not sure what the purpose of the mole projects is, but would support any student who objected to it. Understanding that authority figures aren’t always right is just as important a lesson for students to learn as the fact they themselves aren’t the final arbiter in most cases. imho</p>
<p>ETA: okay now I’m going to disagree with myself upon a few minutes further reflection. I think everyone is, legitimately, the final arbiter of what is worth doing for that individual. In a best case scenario, education and maturity allow one to understand how to constructively adapt that sense of self to be a contributing member of society.</p>
<p>Well, here’s a high school’s explanation of “Mole Day”: <a href=“http://www.dentonisd.org/page/9705”>http://www.dentonisd.org/page/9705</a>
Convinced? It looks to me like a knockoff of “Pi Day.” Do these things actually generate excitement for and interest in chemistry? Well, some educators obviously think they do.</p>
<p>I think it matters a lot just how much of this kind of stuff there is. If there’s not too much of it, it’s better to avoid being a party-pooper.</p>
<p>You have a good point. In some cases it may make sense to tell kids to just go along with the crowd to avoid being a party-pooper. It makes me a little nervous, unless we have a discussion about context and when this is okay and when it’s not. At this point it may be clear everything tended to be talked to death at my house. In retrospect I am not entirely certain this was the best child rearing technique.</p>