<p>I agree with you on this collegialmom. These are finite resources, not bottomless tanks. It does matter when people tap into that sort of resource.</p>
<p>I’m not sure that everyone has a clear picture of what type of students are at issue. Most of the state laws that grant in-state tuition to illegals have very stringent requirements to qualify, typically graduating from an in-state high school; living in-state for two or, more often, three years; and signing an affidavit pledging to apply for permanent residency when eligible. These are kids, some of them academic high-achievers, who are: a) going to be around and part of the state economy one way or another; and b) probably in the country for the sins of the parents (and the supreme court long ago recognized the right of such non-compliant students to K-12 education). </p>
<p>On both economic and ethical grounds (we don’t punish children for their parents’ crimes), I think that it’s not unreasonable for a state to decide that in-state tuition makes sense. I think it’s remarkable that so many states have passed such laws, in fact, because–as this thread makes clear–most people’s immediate, visceral reaction is NO WAY. To vote for such a law clearly takes some explaining to constituents, and yet lots of legislators see the benefits.</p>
<p>At least the “illegal” wants an education… if he/she could get an education then they could get a better job… and provide for their family better. unlike most illegals who must work long hours for low pay. if they lived there- in state tuition is what they should pay.</p>
<p>I don’t want this benefit to be an incentive for people to stay here. I simply do not want to pay anymore and would like remaining in America to be less attractive.</p>
<p>Illegal Or No Illegal… U Still Have To Pay Taxes So Get Over It. The U.s. Is Still In Debt…</p>
<p>(Beware I am using the term ‘illegal immigrant’ because it is the easiest to type.)</p>
<p>I think there needs to be more elaboration on what it means to immigrate illegally. MANY immigrants are here illegally with forged documents which means they are paying taxes just like any other citizen or legal resident. What I think is at issue here is the person who has immigrated illegally and is undocumented. But not EVERY illegal immigrant is undocumented or a tax evader. It’s not a simply issue of a gazillion people sneaking over the southwest borders and gobbling up social services while providing no contribution to our society…though many with an agenda would like to portray it as such.</p>
<p>Also, I think the proposed bill is a bit of bloated mess…but it should be noted that those who have immigrated illegally who wish to become legal will be fined, returned to the country and expected to enter legally. There is an intent to smooth the path a bit, especially for children of illegal immigrants. Frankly, given the economic contribution of a cheap labor force provided by these immigrants, my opinion is they are deserving of the help.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/amnesty.html[/url]”>http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/amnesty.html</a></p>
<p>The people who are using forged documentation are actually stealing other people’s identities and I find that equally appalling and don’t want to reward or help them, either.</p>
<p>I know that some use taxpayer identification numbers, which is at least honest, but as I said earlier, I’m not interested in providing an incentive.</p>
<p>Zoosermom has a good, point. Again it’s one that proponents ignore or minimize. It’s clear that some folks who reside here with fraudulent documentation have misappropriated said documentation from unsuspecting legal residents and citizens. The NY Times published a revealing story in April about a latina in California [a citizen] who had a heck of a time getting her records corrected when it was discovered that an illegal immigrant had been using her identity (including her social security number) for years and was finally caught up in a DHS raid of a midwestern meat-packing plant. There are consequences to illegal immigration that actually harm people.</p>
<p>Yeah, but those consequences are tied to their underground status, not to the fact that they immigrated. As you note in your citation of the story above, here were TWO people employed and paying into my mom’s and my Social Security with the possibility of only one of them ever collecting.</p>
<p>“Yeah, but those consequences are tied to their underground status, not to the fact that they immigrated. As you note in your citation of the story above, here were TWO people employed and paying into my mom’s and my Social Security with the possibility of only one of them ever collecting.”</p>
<p>It’s tied to the choices they have made. Staying at home is a valid choice, and if the immigration bill becomes law, both will be collecting.</p>
<p>No,no,no zooser and Lake…</p>
<p>I’m not talking identity theft from US citizens. I’m referring to the black market in their own countries (please see my previous post) where foreign citizens knowingly apply for legal green cards/visas/documentation and then sells those items to brokers. The person who arrives on our shores with those papers IS assuming the identity of another, but not a US citizen. And they are finding employment, properly filling out IRS forms and paying income and social security tax. My point is…don’t assume everyone who has cut a corner to get here is not paying into our system of social services. </p>
<p>And don’t assume there is a net drain on our economy either. As I’ve mentioned, it would be a very interesting experiment to lose 20 million retail customers who provide dirt cheap labor. There are always two sides to a economic transaction. Change one and you change the other. Elimination of the illegal immigrant workforce would have a depressive effect on our economy. </p>
<p>And don’t point the finger at others until you are sure your own home wasn’t framed by an illegal immigrant, or the meal on your table wasn’t processed by an illegal immigrant, etc… Or before you figure if your budget can handle the doubling and tripling of the cost of some goods and services that would be inevitable in the absence of an illegal immigrant workforce.</p>
<p>Idmom, informed people of good will can agree on such important issues. I respect your right to hold your opinion, although I disagree vehemently. For me, the cost of social services is simply too high. I don’t believe that there ARE jobs that Americans won’t do, and I believe that the market would adjust if many illegal immigrants returned home. I don’t think absorbing 20 million, and then their extended families, would be an interesting experiment, I think it would be a disaster. Particularly as the bill is written. How could one business day be enough for a background check, particularly when the numbers of applicants will be so high? It’s a two-sided issue with good people on both sides. I don’t recall pointing fingers at anyone, and I’d like to remind you (if you’ve ever known this) that I’ve worked as a literacy volunteer serving most illegal immigrants for over 20 years. I care very much about people, but I think this bill is a disaster and I can not support it. It also offends me morally for the US to allow Mexico to continue its ethnic cleansing on the back of American taxpayers.</p>
<p>zooser - I mean ‘pointing a finger’ figuratively…as in not addressing YOU specifically. I should have drawn a line between paragraph one and two…since paragraph one was me addressing you and Lake’s misinterpretation of my point and the remaining paragraphs were not to any specific person. </p>
<p>Aaah but that’s how it goes on the internet…</p>
<p>Btw…we already have absorbed the 20 million. That part of the experiment is done. What remains to see is what would happen if those people were sent home. I guess my point there is this. We hear the loud, vocal protests against illegal immigration from both sides of the aisle…and as soon as these people succeed in eliminating this part of our economic equation, they will be equally loud when their paychecks do not go nearly as far in purchasing goods and services and when businesses cut back due to higher overhead causing the economy to shrink. </p>
<p>Sending them home is not the answer.</p>
<p>And…ethnic cleansing? I’m going to need some clarity on that one.</p>
<p>“I don’t believe that there ARE jobs that Americans won’t do…”</p>
<p>I’m still waiting for you or your daughters to come out to my state to pick cherries. I’ll guarantee at least twice the minimum wage, full health care, housing, workers’ comp, and you’ll pay into Social Security. We have hundreds and hundreds of unemployed white high school grads, college students, and college grads on the east side of our mountains, but they won’t take the jobs, and we are short several thousand workers. Come here and I’ll set you all up.</p>
<p>“It also offends me morally for the US to allow Mexico to continue its ethnic cleansing on the back of American taxpayers.”</p>
<p>It’s American taxpayers who made out like banshees, driving tens of thousands of people off their land through NAFTA, setting up sweatshops in Mexico City, and driving hundreds of thousands of folks over the border to work here “on the cheap”, driving down the costs of food</p>
<p>It’s called “neo-liberalism”, with Al Gore as its greatest proponent.</p>
<p>(as for the bill, I don’t feel strongly one way or the other, and would be just as happy if they didn’t pass it.)</p>
<p>wake up and smell the coffee mini. there are jobs that white americans won’t do… back in the day… they gave them to the irish, and the slaves, and now today they give them to hispanics. so many americans are lazy</p>
<p>D’yer: Thanks for the response to my question.</p>
<p>ldmom:
What if they were largely replaced by ‘legal’ guest workers and immigrants?</p>
<p>Also, Not all pickers are illegal and not all illegals are pickers. I don’t know what the pickers get paid but I know that most of my neighbors pay illegals more than minimum wage and always in cash (no taxes paid). I don’t hire illegals like many of my neighbors do but I would have no problem at all with hiring legal guest workers. I will say this - although I regularly have illegals come to my house seeking work, I’ve never once had a neighborhood kid or anyone else come seeking work. </p>
<p>I think we need to enforce legal guest workers and immigration for many reasons and from many perspectives but one is to make sure these people can end up working in the open rather than under the covers. We need to make sure they’re earning a reasonable wage according to their work, that they’re living in reasonable conditions (as opposed to canyons around where I live or 5 families per house), that the question of education for their kids is no longer a question, that they’re paying their fair share of taxes like the other legal workers, and that we don’t end up encouraging more illegal immigration (which is what happens with ‘amnesty’).</p>
<p>“wake up and smell the coffee mini. there are jobs that white americans won’t do… back in the day… they gave them to the irish, and the slaves, and now today they give them to hispanics. so many americans are lazy”</p>
<p>But it doesn’t offend me “morally” that so many Americans are lazy. Meanwhile the sons and daughters of the hardworking cherrypickers are settling out in the Wenatchee and Yakima Valleys, building homes, raising families, becoming doctors and lawyers and nurses and teachers, and keeping the economy humming. Oh, and they ARE Americans, and they vote. ;)</p>
<p>ucdad - I actually don’t oppose a guest worker program or any set of laws that will bring these folks into compliance. What I oppose is sending them home as a part of the process to bring them into compliance.</p>
<p>And my conscience hurts a little when I think that all my Ulster ancestors had to do was get on a boat and show up back in 1730.</p>
<p>“It’s not taking away from anyone, you still get your instate tuition as well. Why do you care? Why does anyone care?”</p>
<p>Oh good we have someone who believes there is such a thing as a free lunch. Yes college campuses just magically appear and the faculty gets paid but there are no tax dollars spent that come out of real peoples pockets.</p>
<h2>Again…this pov^ assumes the NET economic effect of the illegal immigrant workforce has been negative. Pretty big assumption.</h2>
<p><a href=“Businessweek - Bloomberg”>Businessweek - Bloomberg;
<p>"But Inez and Antonio aren’t your typical American consumers. They’re undocumented immigrants who live and work in the U.S. illegally. When the couple, along with Esmeralda, crossed the Mexican border five years ago, they had little money, no jobs, and lacked basic documents such as Social Security numbers. Guided by friends and family, the couple soon discovered how to navigate the increasingly above-ground world of illegal residency. At the local Mexican consulate, the Valenzuelas each signed up for an identification card known as a matr</p>