Agreed. But interesting directionally nonetheless.
1 Like
I personally think that if you’re at or above the 25th, to go ahead and submit. To me, it’s better to show you’re in range, than to introduce doubt in AOs’ minds regarding the test result.
7 Likes
I think that most of this is being overthought in many instances and a dose of commonsense may help.
Seldom will a test score, regardless of how high it is, be dispositive in the admissions process. My take from the Yale Admissions podcast is that Yale prefers a test score, but it is reviewed to determine if it clears an initial hurdle - in context of the applicant’s circumstances - and then is not really referenced again. Too low of a score, however, may be largely dispositive.
For those schools that profess to be truly test optional - Dean J at Virginia clearly, repetitively and publicly states this about UVA and I have no reason to doubt her - a test score will provide a data point to the admissions office, but the applicant can provide alternative means to support their application.
But, this is where the commonsense comes in. Does UVA have knowledge about the academic rigor at the test optional candidate’s OOS school? Further, what if it appears from the school profile that the OOS school is an underresourced? Can the applicant provide support to demonstrate that his/her 4.0 represents a candidate that can succeed at UVA? Possibly. Options might be a particularly high ACT / SAT, 4s or 5s on several core AP exams and AIME qualifier, or a host of other possibilities. The mistake would be in not providing evidence of academic preparedness outside the bare transcript.
1 Like
I am likely wrong about this, but my position would be that you are probably safe if you are within the range stated in the last pre-Covid CDS (if you can find it for the school).
And, when I say safe here, I do not mean that you will be admitted or that this should be considered a safety school. Rather, I mean that your chances would be similar to that in 2019-2020 with the same application.
3 Likes
Agree with the sentiment and I think this is where schools and the CDS reporting really do kids a disservice. Clearly the schools like to see their average reported scores go up, but it is really a mirage - of course the scores will increase when the number of applicants submitting a score drops by 40% and the applicants are told to do what you state above.
What I find to be heartbreaking is seeing kids with a score of a 33 agonizing over whether to submit or not (and there have been threads where kids with 34s and 35s were questioning whether to do so). While it is unlikely that a 33 will be what gets an applicant accepted, it will almost never be what excludes them. But yet many anguished over the decision.
7 Likes
I have seen people say this on CC, but I somewhat disagree. At many top schools with 50th percentile 34, only half of the students submit scores (or sometimes less). In that case my opinion is that they probably assume those who don’t submit are below 34 so if you have a score within one point of the 25th percentile it may help you because they know your score is in range of people they admit.
My D24 submitted her score and was just admitted ED with a 32 ACT to a school whose mid-50 ACT range is 33-35. Her GPA is also a bit lower than what they typically accept. (Highest rigor and normal strong EC). For sure ED helped her a ton. But I also think her 32 was good enough to possibly help her and definitely not hurt her. We will never know for sure - but she got in!
9 Likes
UIUC admission stats show that most enrolled students submitted test scores in the more competitive majors of Engineering and Business. Engineering 81% submitted and Education only 36% submitted.
6 Likes
I feel like this is more nuanced. They’ll say you aren’t disadvantaged by not submitting a score. That can be true – you’ll stay in the running and they won’t hold ot against you. But you will be disadvantaged if you can’t find some other way of demonstrating that you are as capable as the students who submitted good scores.
I’m not an admissions reader, but Id guess that many students who decide to apply TO do not manage to make that case for themselves. Likewise, I’d guess that those who have posted about TO admissions success, successfully met that challenge.
There are different ways of doing that and they will almost certainly vary depending on your SES (and geography.)
7 Likes
I will heed the deans of admission of Yale and Dartmouth, who have stated explicitly that they prefer scores.
3 Likes
You won’t find a single academic at a university say they would rather have less rather than more data to make a decision. The question is whether standardized tests represent a skew towards favoring those of higher financial means and cultural backgrounds. The answer to that is yes.
That’s hotly debated on multiple threads, but is off topic to this one.
5 Likes
But if scores are the best way to measure future success, are we pushing people through that maybe aren’t earning it? Or qualified ?
I’ve worked for and with many with multiple degrees. Many can’t form a sentence.
Isn’t there something wrong if they’ve graduated from multiple colleges ?
Not saying a test can’t contribute to predicting success, but a body of work across four years from tests, quizzes, papers, effort etc is going to be best predictor of workplace success than a one time test event.
3 Likes
I would say that the many times/places where schools and AOs state that TO will not hurt you - and they say that in published materials, in podcasts, blog posts, and at info sessions (I heard it this year at many) - is them effectively saying they have no issue with less data. That is not technically “preferring less data” but functionally equivalent, as all too many people stung by applying TO discover.
1 Like
No, about 20/4000 schools in the US have an average ACT that high (34). Far less than 1%.
Test optional is interesting. If you look at UNC, for example, (in state), kids who submitted scores were accepted 80% of the time, versus their overall in state acceptance rate of around 40%, which would mean test optional are accepted at an even lower rate. We know several kids who submitted scores in their lower 25th (or at it) who got in. So, for that school, it seems a test score is preferred, even if they don’t say it.
2 Likes
Study after study shows that it does. And schools note this when reinstating.
It makes sense in this regard - on that day ( not counting for prep opportunities), everyone is the same.
The 4.0 AP and 2.8 regular class kid.
Let’s be honest, tons of kids today are high achievers.
It shouldn’t be this way but it is.
How else do so many schools have a high % at really high GPAs?
Those kids who don’t take - who is to say their hs record is legit?
They panic on tests ?
Then how’d they get close to straight A’s?
The world has changed from competitive to participation trophy in nature.
1 Like
No doubt, but that’s where grade inflation and non-standardized grading comes into play. I’d imagine it is difficult differentiate between candidates when they go to high schools across the country, in completely different systems.
1 Like
I agree with you.
Yes very true but collecting data on the high schools is part of their model as well. It’s a hierarchical linear model with data on the student and the high school. The high school data can control for differences by high school in quality and grade inflation