What Extra Curricular Activities (ECs) Top Schools REALLY want

calmom · May 13, 2006, 4:41pm

DRJ14, I’d just like to note that my daughter used fee waivers for all her applications, and her high school college counselor really encouraged that – most of the kids from her high school use fee waivers. This is a public school – so most of the kids come from homes with relatively modest incomes. There may be a significant number of kids who use the waivers – I don’t know percentages, but I certainly wouldn’t be surprised if it were 10% or so.

So the bottom line is that some people apply without paying the $65. (Or the $70, which my daughter didn’t pay when she applied to Brown). I’d note that even though my d. is a very strong student, I never thought she had a chance at Brown and did not support her applying there – so I kind of wonder how many kids there are like her applying to Ivies – kids with strong academic qualifications but a significant disqualifying weakness that thee Ivy is not likely to overlook. (In my d’s case, sub-par test scores). The allure of the Ivies is probably enough to pull in a lot of applicants from people who simply don’t have the right stuff for admission.

I don’t think most of these students apply with the assumption that they are going to get in: I think that many apply with the knowledge that it is a long shot, and the hope that they will get lucky.

Again - despited your many posts complaining to the contrary, the basic criteria for admissions – test score range, typical GPA, and recommended academic preparation - are well publicized and easy to come by.

My guess it that probably about half of the applicants to the top Ivies are seriously in the running, and among those there is statistically only a one-in-five chance of admission. Maybe about 20% of the overall applications are from students who simply never had a chance – and maybe 30% are from students who have good grades & test scores, but simply don’t have the types of profiles that make them competitive for Ivies.

1Down2togo · May 13, 2006, 4:48pm

Having good recommendations could be more important than being your region’s champion high jumper. Remember, unless you are a recruited athlete or will be part of the theater program, or won the Intel prize, what you did for EC’s is not as important as the fact that you did something and did it reasonably well and over an extended period of time–and made a positive impact.

If your recommendations talk about how in over X# of years, they have never had a student like you, that is going to outweigh the regional high jumping champ whose gpa is .04 points higher than yours and whose recs include bland things that could have been written about any number of students.

Go out and do what you love, throw yourself into it, be the heart and soul of your group/team/classroom, be nice to people, be supportive and encouraging and stay positive. Look for ways to make a difference, to help someone out, to be a friend or mentor. That attitude will shine through in your accomplishments, in your recommendations, in your essays. You don’t have to do 1000 hours of community service and get elected chairperson to prove you are a caring person and a leader. If your drama teacher writes about how you took a student or group of students under your wing junior year and worked with them, helped them reach their potential or feel more comfortable, etc., that’s evidence that you are indeed a caring person, a leader, who contributes to the world around you in a positive way.

Again, except in the cases of recruiting for specific needs, colleges aren’t looking for specific things, they are looking for evidence that you are a certain type of person. There are many ways to satisfy that requirement. None of them will guarantee admission into HYPS. But if you go out and do what you love, throw yourself into it, be the heart and soul of your group/team/classroom, and be nice to people, you will be successful wherever you go to college. And chances are, you’ll be happier than if you spent 4-6 years of your life trying to please college admissions committees by pursuing what you think might float their boat on the particular Thursday evening or Sunday morning when they open your application folder.

epiphany · May 13, 2006, 5:02pm

Post #297 is a different issue, but I agree that it’s problematic. It’s a double message, a contradictory one, on the part of the “most selective” colleges. Yes, H and its peer U’s campaign for numbers. It may be accurate to say that their message is, “Please apply even if you’re not qualified; we love to deny because it makes us look good.” That is very different from saying, “Heck, everyone has a reasonable chance of acceptance.” They cannot be accused of the latter. A case cannot be made for that. Just because people draw improper inferences, such as SBMom notes, H is not to blame for that, in itself. Again, I refer to published charts. A student can look at that Brown admissions page & see that there were indeed some admits in the low-scoring category. Those admits were minuscule, & you’d better believe that those people had something quite out of the ordinary going for them, to compensate. If something similar doesn’t happen to be (currently) on the H site, it would not be difficult to unearth the accurate admission stats for the previous admissions year, minimum. An enterprising student, a family who wishes to become informed, could pick up a telephone to H Undergrad Admissions & request such information. It’s very possible (again with the CYA) that they have recently stopped broadcasting actual statistics on their website for the very reason that SBMom notes: there will be some people who will seize on that-- i.e., the “range” part.

Calmom’s fee-waiver reminder is also to be noted. For those folks, there is no financial loss. And yes, there are plenty of long-shot apps, too – the “why not?” ones. (Nothing to lose by trying.)

kaii · May 13, 2006, 5:11pm

Do you think that taking all 3 AP Studio Art courses will count as an EC?

soozievt · May 13, 2006, 5:20pm

1Down2toGo…your post is excellent. I agree with everything you wrote and how that is the crux of this matter. Often times, when I read the student boards here…either the “What are My Chances” ones or the April ones when students post who got accepted and who did not and post their basic “stats”, people can’t understand how Johnny didn’t get in who had higher stats than Danny who did get in. What they do NOT see are the recs, essays, other parts of the app, or the interview, nor the entire grouping and who they had to fill different needs in the class. There is a whole lot more to an applicant than basic stats (which you do need to be in the ballpark with). For elite colleges, a majority of students will have the stats to be considered so there is all the other stuff that sets one apart from the next, not 50 points this way or that way. I also agree with the notion that they are looking for people, not specific things, per se.

DRJ4 wrote:

“You actually believe that 3,313 applicants applied to Harvard and paid the $65 admission fee, even knowing they had no chance to get past the first cut? And they did this, presumably, for the honor of saying they applied to Harvard? That may be true for some, but I submit that most of these students actually thought they had a chance for admission. A prudent college would make its minimum standards clear to avoid that misconception.”

First, I wasn’t just talking of Harvard, though another poster may have and I agree with her analysis. I was talking of any highly selective college. I agree with her response to your question above, by the way. First, I don’t think they applied “for the honor of saying they applied to Harvard.” They either were ill informed and really thought they had a chance, are just very unrealistic, or are pressured to apply or are seeking prestige full steam ahead at all costs. I have seen posters on CC who have “Ivy or bust” mentalities…(some even have screennames with such tones). All these colleges make their stats known regarding who has been accepted in the past…SAT ranges, rank, etc. of accepted students, plus their selectivity (admit rates).

I think because you are educated and perhaps realistic about the odds and understand the ballpark one must be in to be even considered, it is hard to imagine that not everyone else is.

I already gave you an example of someone who has Yale and Brown (among many other very selective schools) on her list who I am evaluating as part of my college counseling services. I’d love to say she was the only student that i had like this but actually I have had many like this with VERY VERY low stats (btw, lower than people on CC talk about and think are low)…GPA, rank, SATs, HS course load, etc. and who have very selective schools on their wish list. It is more common than you think. I have read of many cases like that here on CC too. I see kids post stats with low SATs and GPAs and have Ivies on their list. I recall a discussion on the Musical Theater forum earlier this spring when someone remarked about having the talent to get into NYU/Tisch and applied knowing that their SATs and grades were not in range for NYU (EVEN THOUGH NYU/Tisch states clearly that artistic review will be weighed 50% and academic admission will also be weighed 50% of the admissions decision) and just hoped it would be OK anyway. I mean they KNEW the academic stats were not in range. Another kid applied to that same program and said he had a 2.7 GPA. I had a student I was counseling who wanted that program who had 900’s for the SATS and a 2.7 GPA. I have a client now with SATs in the 800’s, a 2.4 academic GPA, the easiest and most min. level HS courses required to graduate but not up to what is required for admissions, who wants Yale. I had a student with a C avg. in the easiest tracked classes with SATs in the 900’s and was ranked in the 90th percentile and wanted Colorado College. I could go on and on with examples like these. They abound! One of my children applied to elite BFA programs in Musical Theater…these have a 2-9% admit rate and require an audition to be admitted. I used to think every single person in the applicant pool was highly qualified. Well, a majority are but along the way, we met many who really were not appropriate candidates for such selective programs, who had an interest in the field, maybe did a school play, but didn’t nearly have the training and talent level of the zillions of other applicants. I came to learn that there really is a small percentage of applicants to elite colleges who were completely out of their league and had applied to inappropriate colleges.

As I prepare suggested college lists for my clients, I break them down into Reach, match, and safety schools. Everyone should have reaches as long as they know they are reaches. The most selective schools in the land are reaches for ANYONE because of their admit rates and they turn away plenty of candidates qualified enough to be admitted. But I also rate some schools on my clients’ own lists as “Far Reaches” and make it known that their chances are extremely unrealistic at those schools and they are free to apply but they are not ones remotely in reach. Believe me, when I examine SOME students’ (or parents’) lists for college, they have some Far Reaches that should NOT be on the list as I KNOW they will NEVER get in. If someone has stats across the board in every aspect of the admissions process that are FAR below those of accepted students, there is no way. If ONE area is subpar, then hopefully the applicant has something compelling in another area to offset that weakness and should apply as a reach school.

Dreaming big is one thing. Having some realism in those dreams, helps. Some people are stuck on prestige to the point that they have blinders on.

Susan

marny1 · May 13, 2006, 6:07pm

kaii- studio art is a great ec to have- but use your abilities in other capacities too-- Volunteer to teach art/ crafts in a senior citizen center- enter an art contest–do art work for the school paper. That’s what some of us mean by “packaging” or showcasing your abilities. Show that love and devotion to your craft in more ways then just taking classes at school. Write an essay about an art work that had special signifigance to you- or an art teacher who influenced you. I think all those other activities together make your artistic abilities more memorable to the admissions committee. But we all understand that YOU REALLY Do Want to volunteer too!! I am a bit cynical about the whole process- but you gotta try and make it work for you.

DRJ4 · May 13, 2006, 6:13pm

Calmom,

Despite your many posts to the contrary, the basic criteria for admissions – especially realistic test score ranges and realistic GPAs - are not well publicized or easy to come by for the average person. That may be the main reason parents and students come to places like College Confidential for information.

Clearly, the people who comment here are well-educated and they value education. It is a sad commentary that such people would strenuously object to the mere idea that basic admission information should be more readily available to everyone.

DRJ4 · May 13, 2006, 6:24pm

Actually, I think we agree on this. Wouldn’t this be far less likely to occur if colleges clearly published their baseline minimum GPAs and SATs (or some combination)?

There are colleges that publish the percentage of applicants admitted at various academic levels, e.g., “10% of applicants having [old] SATs of 1200-1299 were admitted, 25% of applicants having SATs of 1300-1399 were admitted, etc.” I think that’s a good start but I haven’t checked every college. I do know it’s not readily available at most admissions websites and I think it should be.

epiphany · May 13, 2006, 6:32pm

DRJ, if you go to the College Admissions forum of CC (I think that’s where it is), one of the moderators has or had a “stickie” that consists of links to the Common Data Sets. Generally, that’s where such information of ranges & such can be found – when they are not already on the college websites, which I still maintain they often, & usually, are.

DRJ4 · May 13, 2006, 6:36pm

Epiphany,

This isn’t about me or you or anyone who reads CC. This is about OTHER PEOPLE who comprise the overwhelming majority of the college applicant world. However, at this point, I might settle for colleges referring applicants to College Confidential along with links to the reliable threads or stickies.

On second thought, I give up.

epiphany · May 13, 2006, 6:58pm

“This isn’t about me or you or anyone who reads CC. This is about OTHER PEOPLE who comprise the overwhelming majority of the college applicant world…On second thought, I give up.”

I could have sworn with the amount of CC time you have invested in this, that you had a personal stake in the answers/information. I guess you have a missionary impulse. I really do not understand what your serious complaint is – either “on behalf of” others, or on behalf of yourself. (I give up.)

I will grant you that it does seem to be harder to find Harvard admissions stats in particular – with P, Y, Penn, Brown, etc. being more readily accessible, more forthcoming. Since the data doesn’t appear just “at the fingertips,” I would imagine it may take a little more giving. HOWEVER, given that it is quite common knowledge for anyone living in the U.S., & who speaks the Eng. language even as a secondary language but NEVER VISITS CC, that Harvard is “the most” or “one of the few most” selective U’s in the country, and that slightly less selective U’s regularly publish admissions stats, how difficult is it to reach the logical conclusion that what applies to other Ivies applies at least as much to H, and then some? I don’t live in the UK, but it is no secret to me that the 2 reachiest U’s there are Cambridge & Oxford. I wouldn’t understand that I’d better have at least as strong stats as the 3rd tier down U expects, to be accepted to Oxbridge?

bookworm · May 13, 2006, 7:03pm

I didn’t read CC until after S applied. Learned all sorts of mistakes that S made, including essay topics and choice of schools.
I’ve talked to many teens about colleges, and given them CC referral. Nonetheless, I have parents encouraging their kids to apply the HPY route, with SAT scores each below 700. They will say, “but she has a great EC”. Again, they don’t want to hear about athletic hooks or some of the other wonderful accomplishments. All I can do is mention more ‘match’ schools, and hope they don’t apply only HYP and then a safety they really don’t like.

jonri · May 13, 2006, 7:20pm

DRJ4 writes:
Despite your many posts to the contrary, the basic criteria for admissions – especially realistic test score ranges and realistic GPAs - are not well publicized or easy to come by for the average person. That may be the main reason parents and students come to places like College Confidential for information.

Clearly, the people who comment here are well-educated and they value education. It is a sad commentary that such people would strenuously object to the mere idea that basic admission information should be more readily available to everyone."

I find it frustrating that someone who is intelligent and educated insists in believing that elite college admissions decisions are made in ways that they just aren’t made.

Score ranges? EVERY elite college publishes its 25/75% range. Its set forth in US News’ annual guide, as well as in most other guidebooks. So, saying that this information is not readily available is simply untrue.

But it really is NOT all about scores. I know a kid who got into a top school with less than stellar scores (below 1400)…but she had an amazing affinity for acquiring foreign languages. This white, middle class kid from NYC began studying Chinese in 9th grade and became totally fluent in it in two years–achieving an 800 on the Chinese with listening SAT II.She had already learned two or three European languages fluently by then–and this is an American kid with American -born parents, neither of whom speak any language other than English. She’s just amazing when it comes to languages–and for Americans, that’s very rare. So, colleges overlooked her SATs.

She’s an example of the reason that colleges don’t want to publish “minimum” scores–you may not believe it, but there are NO minimum scores. Given the right circumstances, low scores won’t keep you out…and there is no way that any college can detail all the unique circumstances in which it will be willing to overlook low scores. Hey, she had high scores too–a solid row of 800s on the French, Spanish, Latin, and Chinese SAT IIs and 5s on APs in French, Spanish, and Latin. And despite the fact that her verbal score on the SAT was below 700 she was an amazing writer too–she became the first freshman since a very well know poet more than 100 years ago to win the college’s top prize for a short story.

GPAs? Well, how high schools figure these varies enormously. Too much, IMO, for a college to set a “realistic” range–though they come close to it by publishing the % of each class in the top 10% of their high school class. But again, the student who excels in something may get in with less than stellar grades overall. The kid who scores a 14 (out of 15) on the AIME (a very competitive math exam) may get into a top school even though his overall gpa is mediocre.

Even in less extreme cases, it should be remembered that acceptance to a top college is NOT a reward for doing well in high school. If a college becomes convinced that a late starter has suddenly “caught fire” and this is legitimate, not a brief spurt brought about by a desire to get into a top college, it may be willing to overlook weak freshman or even sophomore year grades.

Again, there’s no way a college could detail all of the situations in which it would be willing to overlook a lower gpa.

Finally, I think too many kids and even more parents are looking for a magic “to be done” list–a guarantee that if you do all of the steps on the list, you’ll be admitted. It really just doesn’t work that way…which is another reason why colleges are reluctant to publish a list of admissions “standards,” which might mislead people into thinking that it does.

DRJ4 · May 13, 2006, 7:23pm

It never occurred to me that your sole reason for posting here was self-interest. Why would you think that of me? But if that’s how you decide, let me point out that I have 126 posts at CC and you have 804.

This began as a thread about ECs, many of which involve students who voluntarily engage in far-reaching and admirable humanitarian community service projects. Time after time, posters have commented on how important it is that the student be sincere about the EC - that they really want to help other people and aren’t just using it as a tool to get into college. I think you have been a proponent of ECs that involve sincere community service. And yet you can’t fathom why I might care about other people.

I’m no saint (or missionary), and I don’t pretend to be. But having just sent my first (and last) child off to college, I want to see the process simplified and made more fair for others. Why don’t you?

1Down2togo · May 13, 2006, 7:48pm

There is no way to make the process more fair. As long as the demand for places at the top colleges outstrips the supply, hard-working, qualified applicants will be turned away. And any time a hard-working, qualified applicant is turned away, the process is going to feel unfair.

sumgirl · May 13, 2006, 7:57pm

I completely agree with tax guy and others. GPA comes before anything and one must sacrifice AP/Hon classes for GPA. I really wish someone had told me this my freshman year of highschool. I am now a junior in highschool and i was wondering if the same applied to college. I want to get into med school.
so is it possible to go to a UC and take “easy” classes to up my GPA and get a good MCAT score and make it into a top MED school like stanford. please reply back when possible.

calmom · May 13, 2006, 8:04pm

Colleges do publish this info and it is very readily available in books like Princeton Review’s “360 Best Colleges”. Back when my older kid was still in high school and I knew nothing whatsoever about college admissions, and internet resources were far more limited – I picked up the annual college-guide issue of a news magazine from the supermarket checkout display and brought it home. When it was time to narrow down choices, I started with the Princeton Review book – 5 years later when it was my daughter’s turn, my first purchase was the latest edition. One reason I like that book is that the info is so clearly set out, and formatted in a way so that the same type of info is in the same place on every page for every college.

I’m pretty sure that most “average” people do look at these college guides, and the information about score ranges and selectivity is very clearly set out in those books. It is also EASIER to buy one book that lists all the colleges than to seek information separately from each college.

calmom · May 13, 2006, 8:07pm

Actually, I don’t understand how people who put themselves in highly competitive situations persist in seeng it as “unfair” if they don’t win. Maybe that’s why the top schools like athletes: at least athletes learn early on that they can’t win every game, and that it isn’t always about which team is best, but rather how the individual game plays out.

laxer · May 13, 2006, 8:25pm

Calmom, I agree wholeheartedly.

soozievt · May 13, 2006, 8:33pm

DRJ wrote:
"Calmom,

Despite your many posts to the contrary, the basic criteria for admissions – especially realistic test score ranges and realistic GPAs - are not well publicized or easy to come by for the average person. That may be the main reason parents and students come to places like College Confidential for information."

I will admit, I TOTALLY do not get this at all. Granted, some parents/students are more educated than others. But when it comes time to look into colleges, how does one go about it? We started by buying the big fat college directories…such as Princeton Review’s 345 Colleges and The Fiske Guide to Colleges. For each college, each book gives the stats of admitted students and many other facts. Worked for us. As well, almost every college has either on their website on in their brochures, stats about admissions…things like you are saying…SAT ranges, etc. Most don’t state a minimum because there is none but you can see what admitted students scored, etc. They tell what HS courses are required. They often give other data…GPA averge, percentage of students admitted with ranks in the top 10, 25, or 50 percentile, etc. As well, magazines like US News puts out such data. I can’t imagine picking colleges without either consulting a guide book, a college fair, a website, or individual brochures from each college you are interested in. How would anyone have any idea if the school fit their interests, their qualifications, etc? If people do not do this very basic investigation, then they are picking by the name, the location, liking the pretty campus or some other way! If one isn’t intelligent enough to consult the web, get a brochure from the college, or a college directory or magazine of college stats, then they likely couldn’t survive at a rigorous college!

I feel like the colleges have plenty of information on their websites and brochures and people can visit and ask questions as well. Lots of this information is covered in the info. sessions on campus! If you can’t find the SAT ranges or rankings, or HS courses required for entry or selectivity (acceptance rate) on your own, you likely are not going to be able to even select appropriate match colleges.

Schools do not always give a minimum SAT or GPA because most selective schools are not merely numbers driven. It is not a formula of XX GPA plus YYYY SAT Score equals admission. (some lower level schools do that, I realize)…if it were this at elite schools, then why oh why are perfect 2400 scores and 4.0 GPAs and vals rejected in droves!? It is sooo much more than that when it comes to selecting candidates. Why bother interviewing students if it is just about the numbers?? Colleges can’t give you a formula because there is no exact formula. There is subjectivity involved. They do explain what kinds of things they look for…whether it is rigor of course work, strong ECs, service, leadership, evidence of academic achievement, and many other things. If you want some equation like X + Y + Z = Ivy…good luck…it doesn’t exist. BUT…plenty of information exists about the stats that admitted students have at the college and also the type of college it is and one can self assess fit and then make a case to market oneself on the app and showcase who they are and how they fit the college, and hope that the college also sees the fit that the student makes a case that she has with that school. And even so, at the top schools, you can have everything they want and do everything right, yadda yadda, and STILL not get in. Is it fair? It certainly is. If you read even one college directory and see that X school has an 11% admit rate, you better realize that more than 11% of the applicants are strong enough to be admitted and your ticket may not get picked for admittance. Be realistic.

Investigate/explore colleges and understand this process. I don’t need ANY more information from the colleges. We read their brochures, websites, visited, spoke with faculty, did the info. sessions and tours, observed classes, met with current students…we were armed with enough info. to make an informed choice. My children wrote a letter or essay for every school that differed from school to school that explained why they wanted to go to that specific college and how they were a match for it and vice versa. Then the college had to decide if the kids were gonna get in. They got into most of their schools because they picked schools that were good fits and had balanced lists in terms of selectivity. It is not rocket science. Nobody is balling their eyes out here that they got rejected at one of their favorites. They can only go to one school. They got into six, waitlisted at one, rejected at one. They had a choice, and even got into one of their first choices, as well as other reaches. I really didn’t think they needed any more information to make these choices of where to apply or where to attend than was readily available. Even if I had more information, their chances of admissions wouldn’t have been any different. We KNEW these were highly selective schools and our expectations matched the realities of this process.

Susan

What Extra Curricular Activities (ECs) Top Schools REALLY want

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