What Extra Curricular Activities (ECs) Top Schools REALLY want

atlantamom · May 21, 2006, 10:14pm

Well, here I am again. I decided I did have something else to say. I have been reading or skimming these posts since I bowed out. Nothing interesting or new for a while, until recently, IMO.

Here is what is new to me in these posts…the idea that ALL students can figure out the admissions game. This sounds similar to the reasoning behind certain political opinions. I disagree that ALL students can figure it out or even know that there is something important to figure out.

At schools with which I am familiar, many parents and counselors are not involved in this admissions process. The children are on their own. I personally know a number of these kids who received the brochures and went to the very large information sessions at which the admissions representatives “did their thing,” and came away from all of this with a belief that they had a GOOD chance at being admitted to one of these elite schools. In reality, most of these kids didn’t have a prayer. So, they had high SAT scores and high grades. Most of them didn’t have the class rank or the EXTRAORDINARY ECs required for admission.

Now, tell me again why the caveat emptor model is appropriate for these young, naive beating hearts? Some of these kids made terrible application decisions because the process is so opaque or even misleading.

Call me a “bleeding heart” if you want to, and I am sure that will bring out the sneers in some folks, but I am proud of my 'bleeding heart."

I said before that more transparency would be a good thing, especially if that transparency made available to the GENERAL PUBLIC a real understanding of the admissions process. The book, The Gatekeepers, was a gem for helping some folks to understand this process better. Unfortunately, most applicants never heard of this book. Most potential applicants are not part of the CC world.

For those of you that have been arguing against more statistics as too troubling, why not agree at least that a more accurate narrative from the elite colleges would be helpful. They would still have all the wiggle room in the world, imo, even if they were more forthright. Just tell these applicants more about how the admissions decisions are made and tell them in the literature that they mail out to potential admittees. Most of the applicants around the country cannot visit these schools or even attend the large information sessions. All they see is what is on the websites or in the brochures. Why can’t the schools put in this literature what is “so well known” here about admissions?

As a matter of disclosure, I do believe in strong consumer protection laws and freedom of information. To the extent that this discussion is founded in our our political philosphies, I think we should disclose that.

calmom · May 21, 2006, 10:15pm

Shelley, I truly believe that the best course of action is for your daughter to take the courses she most wants to take. It saddens me to see so many people focusing on a single-minded race for elite admissions when – if you can draw any information at all from the thread – things are clearly overcrowded at the top, and even the best grades are no guarantee of admission.

It isn’t even a matter of “most challenging” vs. easier A’s… you also have to throw in most interesting, most intriguing, most fun. So many of us have kids who are involved in arts, in theater, in dance, in band – not necessarily at an elite, prizewinning level – but who want time in their day for a drama or art class – and they are in schools where these grades cannot be weighted, or perhaps the band or choir teacher is a tough taskmaster who rarely gives out A’s. Should they give up something they love in the pursuit of the perfect transcript? Why? So they try to get into a college with a prestigious name, perhaps being rejected and ending up at a less-prestigious college, as opposed to simply aiming for the less-prestigious college in the first place?

The irony, I think, is that the harder the student works to qualify for elite admissions, the more they lose in terms of predictability. Not so much , as some posters argue, because the process is “unfair” or lacks transparency, but because the competition is so fierce. At the same time, there are so many excellent colleges that are not so elite, not so competitive, but where admissions is much easier to predict.

I don’t know what choices your daughter now faces in terms of course work, but I’d urge you to let her make them and follow her dreams. My own personal experience is that for my daughter, taking a road less traveled paid off in the end in any case – though we certainly didn’t expect things to work out, she ended up being admitted into the reach colleges she applied to, even though on paper she seemed to have some gaping holes. But I guess that she had the magic of demonstrated “passion” even though there wasn’t a single prize or award to list on the application form. At the same time, I would never tell someone to follow this route as a college admissions strategy – the point was I let my daughter do what she wanted or felt she needed to do at age 16, simply with the rationale that things would work out one way or another at age 18, even if like most of her classmates she ended up attending a college that was not a top choice. The one guarantee that I did have was that my daughter would never look back on her high school years as a stressed out time working at doing things she hated while missing out on the things she wanted.

So really… my point is that the right question is NOT “what do the top colleges really want?”, — but what does your child really want? And sometimes it just is necessary to back off and give the kid some time and space to explore, even give them a chance to make mistakes along the way – so they can figure that part out. (Obviously I am not talking about the child who “wants” to veg out and sleep all day - those kids might need a parental kick in the pants – I’m talking about active, involved kids who are torn between what they want and what someone else thinks is “best”.)

atlantamom · May 21, 2006, 10:25pm

Adding to my post #441,

One last thing,

I again want to repeat that I never said that more information from colleges should be used to mold a kid into “the perfect applicant” or that PERFECT transparency was needed.

Sooo, we don’t need to go back to those arguments.

marite · May 21, 2006, 10:27pm

DRJ has been mixing up different kinds of information. GFG has been consistent in asking for more transparency. DRJ has, also, quoting Donald Kagan re: capriciousness. But then, when I mentioned info sessions I’ve attended, he switched horses and talked about being able to attend info sessions–which is different from the issue of transparent admission criteria both GFG and Kagan talked about.

Let’s talk info and capriciousness. When I applied to colleges from abroad over 40 years ago, there were no websites. I happened to hear about the college I eventually attended by total fluke. And I never knew what a SAT was. Never mind. I’d passed the first part of the baccalaureate and, to the college, that was enough. I don’t know if American colleges would be as flexible (read “capricious”) as my college was 40 years ago.

When S1 was in high school, we heard about SATs for the first time when we attended an info session at his high school some time in the spring of his sophomore year. This was the same time that we also found out about the PSAT. We did not even know that Fiske and Barrons existed, that there were SAT prep books, etc… I am not sure that most colleges had websites, let alone admissions websites. Colleges have even more transparent criteria than 40 years ago, and the information available about the colleges themselves and their admissions criteria is more widely available than even 10 years ago.

TheGFG · May 21, 2006, 10:32pm

While timing and pre-requisites shouldn’t be ignored if GPA is important to you, I would second what Calmom says above in terms of general philosphy. My son really wanted to take that AP Physics C class junior year along with all his smart friends who were taking it then. He also wanted to be taught by this fabulous teacher, who rumor had it would not be teaching the course the year after. We didn’t think it was a good idea because of his math level and even math ability, but we gave in. His GPA did suffer, but he had an absolute blast! That class ranks as his favorite one of all–not because of the material so much as the teacher, the companions, and being pushed academically farther than ever before. Having since met the physics teacher, I now understand my son’s decision. He is by far the most interesting and entertaining high school teacher I have ever met. My S did get in several top schools anyway. In fact, for one of them which required a recommendation from a classmate, his friend wrote how my S had challenged himself with the most difficult science course in the school despite being more of a social sciences kid.

marite · May 21, 2006, 10:34pm

So, the information is available out there. Is it the fault of the colleges (or even Wesleyan) that the general public does not know about the book, or, if it does, does not bother to buy it, borrow it, or read it?

Northstarmom · May 21, 2006, 10:40pm

I agree with Marite. There’s plenty of info in books, in newspapers, and on on-line sites and broadcast stations about college admissions. This info is available to everyone who bothers to do the research.

Top colleges should not be expected to spoonfeed potential applicants information about the intricacies of admission. Meanwhile, no matter how much potential applicants research admissions, the bottom line is that there still are many more qualified applicants to top colleges than there are spaces. Those schools are reaches for virtually everyone, so applicants should always have a sure bet college to apply to, and this should be a college where the applicants know they’ll be accepted to and also can afford.

DRJ4 · May 21, 2006, 11:01pm

To the delight of many, I am bowing out of this discussion. I defer to TheGFG and AtlantaMom, both of whom posted thoughtful comments with which I wholeheartedly agree.

Let me also state that I believe those commenters who have taken the opposite position have debated from a sincere and heartfelt position. I understand your analogies - the choosing of beer, the buying of jeans - but I do not find these analogies persuasive because we aren’t talking about some casual consumer purchase. We are talking about college admissions, frequently elite college admissions. Like the rest of you, I expect more effort from students and parents because college is important. Unlike some, however, I expect more from the colleges, too.

I happen to like Ivy League colleges. I want them to become more transparent for their own good. Historically, Ivy League colleges have been national powerhouses. Other fine colleges - such as Rice, Vanderbilt, Emory, and some might even argue Stanford - are top tier colleges that are more accurately considered top tier regional colleges. I believe that Ivy League colleges are on the path to becoming top tier regional colleges - attracting primarily Northeastern students, legacies, and West Coast applicants - unless they change (and especially unless they change their admissions processes). Already, many National Merit Finalists are going to other colleges. Obviously there are plenty of NMFs who apply to Ivy League colleges, but many do not and that was unusual 20 years ago. Perhaps Ivy League colleges will always be elite colleges to people in the Northeast, West Coast, and to legacies. However, as their attractiveness declines (and I submit it already is declining), Ivy League colleges will become more like today’s top tier regional colleges.

I know most of you will disagree with me. Please don’t bother flaming me because I’m not trying to convince anyone. In fact, I hope I’m wrong. I like to discuss these ideas with curious, knowledgeable people. I thought this was the place to find them and I still think it is.

atlantamom · May 21, 2006, 11:05pm

Well guys, I just flat out disagree with you. Yes, I think colleges should "spoon feed, " as you put it, potential applicants. They spend plenty of money on enticing them…they could spend some money spoonfeeding them. You act as though sophistication is all that matters. Maybe it is. Too bad, if that is true.

You folks must live in a different environment than I do. Many kids I have known get no advice from counselors or parents. They don’t know there are books out there like The Gatekeepers. They aren’t lazy or stupid. They just don’t know about all of this. They are naive. They look at the mid-range SATs and percent in the top 10% and think, “Oh, I qualify.” They hear that they need ECs and they say, “Oh, I’ve been in marching band for 4 years and played varsity baseball.” I’ll apply to HYP etc and to state U. They get rejected from the elites and “have to” go to state U.

They also don’t know a thing about financial aid, either.

Just 'down home folks" don’t have the knowledge you guys (or I) have. The colleges could help by a clearer picture of admissions. Sure, there always will be naive folks. I believe that even if we can’t eradicate problems, we certainly should do our best to lessen them. That’s all we can do.

BTW, I know I won’t convince those of you who disagree with me, but I want to give a little support to the other posters who hung in. I think this debate is more a political debate in reality. Like many others here on CC. Scratch the surface and there it is.

Okay, I’m out of here again. I made my point.

epiphany · May 21, 2006, 11:06pm

Don’t try to confuse anyone with the facts, Northstarmom. People begging for greater transparency are not interested in the facts that are indeed “out there” and “published.” They seem to believe that greater transparency – if there is such a thing, if it’s possible & if it can be communicated in a way that will please them – will result in more spots opening up to deserving students. WRONG! It will result in even more qualified-looking individuals applying for the same FINITE number of spots in those “Top Schools.” Even I, math-challenged as I am, can do the math. The probability for any one (randomly picked) student achieving a desired admissions results will actually be LESS, not more, mathematically speaking. But I promise you, if/when cc posters (parent or students) come back to cc complaining about greater transparency not achieving the desired result, these posters will STILL blame the colleges for supposedly hoodwinking us all.

TheGFG · May 21, 2006, 11:06pm

I don’t worry about capriciousness quite so much as I worry about hidden, or at least concealed, social agendas. For example, when in America are we going to arrive at a place when we’re all just plain Americans? While they may be mistaken, the top students in my S’s HS will swear that members of a certain minority group have a definite advantage in elite college admissions. For the 4 years that they’ve been watching the trends (and for the years prior reported to them by older kids), students of that ethnicity have been selected for Ivy admission despite lower credentials than their competition. Now if a kid of any race or culture from some economically depressed inner city is cut a break with regard to test scores and class levels, this makes perfect sense. A student must be evaluated within the context of his background to determine whether he did the best he could with the available opportunties.

But why should the child of well-to-do parents, who spent all his formative years in an affluent suburb attending very good suburban schools, be given preferential treatment over non-URM’s simply because of skin color? Year after year these top students have watched URMs breeze through HS with nary an AP on their transcript and still get into UPenn, Princeton, and Swarthmore. Since the top kids are taking around 12 APs, among them they’d know if the URM’s were in any AP classes or not. And no these students don’t have some fabulous EC’s that explain this. After four years together, information like that would have come out in conversation at one time or another. It has gotten to the point where the kids make bets about which URM’s will be accepted to which schools.

I’m not sure what my opinions are about AA, but I can tell you that the white and Asian students aren’t too thrilled with it!

marite · May 21, 2006, 11:07pm

Another instance of not reading widely available information. Declining attractiveness? Harvard had the lowest admit and highest yield ever, or close to it. Top tier rregional colleges? HYP are making unprecedented efforts to recruit from geographically and economically diverse populations; the proportion of their international students is also rising steadily.

What is happening is that lots of excellent students who have the stats for HYPSM but cannot be admitted for a variety of reasons, including space, are matriculating at other schools. That is a terrific thing. But HYPSM declining in popularity? becoming regional schools? Gimme a break.

And by the way, S’s roommate is from a little place in TX that only Curmudgeon, apparently, has heard of. I doubt very much that Harvard sends reps there. But somehow, S’s roommate had heard of Harvard, and what’s more, he got admitted.

atlantamom · May 21, 2006, 11:11pm

Epiphany,

You distort by your accusations. Reminds me of Fox News.

I pray that this type of response eventually will lose its power.

Bye.

epiphany · May 21, 2006, 11:21pm

I was just as naive and “down-home” as ever when D#1 came “of [college] age.” That’s why I engaged the brain that God gave me to go find the info that I needed. On other threads, I have praised those who offer free services to “naive,” “down-home” students; I do so myself, & regularly – online & in person. I think this is an example of where it does “take a village.” Oh, wait, excuse me: the colleges are responsible for the disparities in income & opportunity & education in this country. I should have known: Not only are they supposed to “fairly” (by whose standard of “fairness” btw, – no, that was a rhetorical question; don’t go there) and “transparently” decide who gets admitted. (Never mind the multiple & overlapping apps; I guess they’re also supposed to know who belongs at which college, making sure each qualified applicant gets accepted to at least one Top School.) They are also supposed to transform society so that naive, down-home folk have full access. I guess they’re supposed to do that in their spare time, while they’re multi-tasking with THOUSANDS OF EQUALLY FINE applications from fabulous students.

And with a couple of the posts over the last hour or so (not atlantamom’s) I see that what I “secretly” (yes, secretly) suspected is true. There are agendas here among one, more, or a duplicate of posters. That’s all I’ll say. (First letter starts with A. Second letter starts with A.)

Northstarmom · May 21, 2006, 11:24pm

"You folks must live in a different environment than I do. Many kids I have known get no advice from counselors or parents. They don’t know there are books out there like The Gatekeepers. They aren’t lazy or stupid. They just don’t know about all of this. They are naive. "

It is very unfortunate that those students are not getting the instruction in school or at home about how to do basic research about things that affect their lives. I assume that students are unlikely to be good matches for top colleges if the students don’t know how to check on-line sites for info about applying to college, and don’t pick up a college guide like the U.S. News guides that are at bookstores, libraries and magazine racks.

What I see missing in those students is an inclination and skills to do basic research. If a student isn’t bothering to do this about college, which would take up 4 years of their life, I doubt that the student would do the kind of analysis and research that top colleges routinely require of their students.

We frequently see students posting on CC who come from low income, first generation college households, and who also attend weak schools. Those students probably end up having better college options than do similar peers who don’t bother to use the Internet and other things to learn about their college options.

I can remember poring over the few college guides that existed back when I was a h.s. senior. I bought them with my own money and also used the public library to find more info about the college app process. I don’t think it’s unrealistic now to expect students who are applying to top colleges to use the many available resources to learn about the college application process.

Meanwhile, the top colleges have an overabundance of excellent applicants already. I doubt that more disclosure would give them a stronger pool: Te strongest applicants probably are already using the Internet and other methods to find out application tips. IMO if colleges provided more application information, all that may happen is that they may get more applications from weaker students, the type of students who lack the analytical skills, passion and assertiveness to research the info on their own.

Some may read this and think that hand holding would boost applications from low income students. That’s probably right. However, a low income student would need to have even more assertiveness, motivation, analytical skills and confidence that a more privileged student would need to be able to thrive in a top college where many classmates would have had more educational advantages than the low income student. Professors at places like HPYS are not going to handhold. Students who would need such assistance to figure out the system would be better off attending more nurturing collleges.

abdulk · May 21, 2006, 11:24pm

I have good grades, ok sats ( which i will improve), but I am wondering how my EC’s are.

Please tell me your opinions!!!( PM would be fantastic!)

-President, Math honor society
-Oaktagon club member , all 4 years
-key club member, will have position next year
-HOSA founder and president
-SADD founder and president
-MSA ( Muslim student association) member for 4 years
-Radio vp
-National Honor Society member
-Founded my own “company”- AALM ( Abdul’s Amazing Lawn Mowing)- I have like 20 regular’s ( boils down to me putting adds into peoples mailboxs w/ my phone number)

Volunteer at local hospital, will have 200+ hours volunteering
-Will take part in NYLF on medicine at Georgetown U ( parents are making me)
-Contrbuter to joecritic.com ( media reviews site)

marite · May 21, 2006, 11:25pm

The GFG;

I don’t think the agenda is hidden. It’s called diversity. Colleges make it clear that they will admit someone with somewhat lower statistical profile than other applicants if that someone has certain characteristics that the college values. Among those are: being a recruited athlete; being a URM, being a legacy; being from an underrepresented geographical area.

It is true that some applicants game the system. Years ago, the child of very affluent, highly educated parents wondered whether he should tick the Hispianic box or not (he eventually decided not). Some URMs are also the children of legacies, or of affluent families; I personally am not bothered by this fact because I believe in the importance of role models. It’s better than young URMs aspire to a college education rather than delude themselves that they can all succeed in becoming rap stars of basketball players. And while they may not differ in their personal life experience from non-URMs, there is such a thing as family memory. Many a successful African-American can talk about his or her grandparent who’d been a slave. I personally benefitted from talking to African-American fellow students. One was from the Deep South, one from NY. I also had a friend from Puerto Rico. Getting to know them and learning about their family histories and their cultures was very enriching.

epiphany · May 21, 2006, 11:28pm

I am distorting nothing. I am hardly like “Fox News,” but I do see that you love to label & categorize. Life is grey, not black & white. My posts on this thread speak to the very greyness of life, including of college admissions. For your information, it cannot be reduced to being entirely the fault of the colleges for not publishing “transparent facts.” Neat categories do not work here. I don’t think you’ve read the full range of my posts, even merely on this thread, well enough to make any kind of an accurate assessment.

TheGFG · May 21, 2006, 11:39pm

“And while they may not differ in their personal life experience from non-URMs, there is such a thing as family memory.”

Good point, Marite. I hadn’t looked at it that way. We all know colleges select for diversity. I was thinking, though, that skin color doesn’t guarantee diversity of life experience or culture. But your subsequent points elaborating on that do make sense.

After an extended visit at the school my son eventually selected, he reported that the ethnic diversity and accompanying cultural diversity there seemed more authentic than at other elite schools–it wasn’t just skin deep, for the sake of appearances.

soozievt · May 21, 2006, 11:53pm

Atlantamom…dunno if you are still here. You make your points each time and then say you are leaving.

But…if you are reading…

I agree that most people know very little about college admissions. I didn’t know too much either when my oldest was starting junior year. Our school did not do anything to inform about college admissions. However, I can’t imagine anyone who is contemplating something this major, for four years, for lotsa money, not looking into the colleges at some level. For instance, we started by getting a big fat college directory. How does one find schools to look into? You need a book like that or websites. All of those basic resources have data on each college. We also bought some basic books about applying to college. Most students have to sit down at some point with their guidance counselor and tell them their list of schools and later present them with the forms from the applications. At the barest minimum, the GC will look at the list of schools and say OK, or might have some input. Parents have to write the checks for the apps, usually. It seems that most people would know that picking out colleges involves looking into them a little bit to find out if they are qualified. To just pick out colleges because you like them but not to figure out if you are in the ballpark, is hard to imagine doing. It is like buying a car…you look into it a bit. Some look into it more than others but there is some investigation or comparison shopping.

There are some things I think people will be naive about unless they read a book or attend some sort of information session about college admissions. For instance, it helps to understand the application process and how to go about it. What are the sorts of essays that should be written? Etc. If the school is not assisting or informative, time to get a basic guidebook. Lots of websites explain this…even the CollegeBoard where you sign up for SATs has information. Another thing is that some are not cognizant of the difficult odds of admissions at top colleges. It used to be that if you were a top student, one would think you could go to a top college of your choice, but no longer. So, yes, I can see how some think that as long as their stats are aligned with a top school and they are active in ECs, etc., that they will get in. After all, we’ve had teachers and guidance counselors tell my kids, of course you can go wherever you want…because they are not aware of the tough odds today at the top schools and that being a strong candidate is not a guarantee of admissions. So, I can see some not understanding the situation (after all, not everyone reads CC!!! LOL). But I absolutely cannot understand not looking into colleges fully via either the web, books, visits, info. session, or with a guidance counselor. ONE of those methods are usually available. If someone doesn’t avail themselves of information, that is not the colleges’ fault. They do make information available about their schools’ admissions.

The part about the process of selecting and applying…needs to be researched by students and parents and ideally, their high schools also hold sessions to inform (ours did not though).

I’m not saying everyone should know how to navigate the process of selection and application, but when the time comes, it is hard to imagine not taking some steps to learn about it so that one can make decisions of where to apply and how to go about it. The information is available to those who seek it.

What Extra Curricular Activities (ECs) Top Schools REALLY want

CONNECT WITH US