what happened to personal ethics and responsibility?

Parent Cafe
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<p>It is hard sometimes to see people game the system and be rewarded for it, while the rest of us plug along doing the right thing the old-fashioned way. But I firmly believe that morals help us live better lives and living a moral life pays off in the long run. Even teenagers know who does things the right way and they respect them, even if they sometimes do tease or joke about it. </p>

<p>In the long run, doing the right thing is rewarded with a good reputation, and that’s something that no amount of money can buy. Ask Ken Lay.</p>

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<p>Wow this thread really seems to have struck a chord.
I agree, I believe in karma - and even if I don’t feel particulary motivated to do the “right thing”, whether because it would be easy to benefit and not be caught, or out of revenge, or other motives, I think that there are probably dozens of times every week if not everyday, that I do the wrong thing, but I am just oblivious to it, so I especially better do the right thing in those instances when I am aware that there might be a choice.</p>

<p>Like for instance in West wing last night when Vinick the republican candidate came into “custody” of the democratic candidates briefcase.
Although Vinick originally wanted his advisor to give it immediately back, he allowed himself to be talked into keeping it overnight, not before he was told what was in it.
I admit I haven’t been watching the show, but I was surprised when Santos, the dem candidate, was pretty suspicious and hostile about the circumstances.
It was very refreshing however, to see politicians behaving responsibly.</p>

<p>I apparently am naive, this past weekend I was disappointed when tickets that were being held for me for a free talk by Ill senator Barack Obama at my daughters high school were changed to being first come first serve and because I was busy volunteering at her school, I couldn’t stand in line so I had to miss the event.</p>

<p>However, I was doubly disapointed when it was apparently just a day for election year speeches to try and win back some credibility for the Dem candidate with the urban minority community.( who incidentally has one of their own running for Green Party candidate for US Senate)</p>

<p>If Obamas task is to bring progressives back to the Democratic party, he has a long road ahead of him., but good luck to him</p>

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<p>Emeraldkity4 - Was cheering for Vinnick (Alan Alda) to do the right thing and return the briefcase. Had a thing for Alan Alda on MASH when I was in High School and was hoping for the best. Somewhat dissappointed, but wouldn’t put anything past the other Republicans</p>

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<p>TheDad, I agree, pricks and all.</p>

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<p>love alan alda- remember the article on “testosterone poisoning” that he wrote for MS magazine in the 1970s?
I wish they didn’t cancel west wing- i would have loved to have seen a republican administration in the white house that had some character.</p>

<p>I think the BMW joke needs to be updated- we don’t have so many BMWs here- cost too much to repair and they aren’t so flashy, when you could have a HUMMER! or a hummer wanna be with the grill practically over my head and tires taller than a small child.
And why do these people need one for driving back and forth on 520?
Because they have a small p*s</p>

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<p>this is not an excuse, but when college costs upwards of 40,000 per year, and the efc’s aren’t even close to what middle america can afford, people start to play games. I don’t think that people that can truly afford a good education for their children, or in another line of thinking nursing homes or healthcare or anything else for that matter, should take money from those that can’t. I see it all the time in healthcare, trying to hide the money. well then, don’t complain that nursing homes are terrible places, because they can’t provide good care without money. But when you want to see your kids get a good education, but you in no way can come close to affording anything, even with them working all summer and during school, what do you do? I am seriously wondering that at this moment, 2 kids going to college in september, I am middle america with no money saved due to being a single parent for 7 years, what do I do when those bills come in. Send them to the ex? especially for people like me where one parent is in this state, another is in another state, the fafsa has your head spinning about who fills it out, the states fight over who supplies aid, it’s just nuts. sorry, just venting.</p>

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<p>I don’t disagree with the previous posters who have pointed out egregious cheating on the part of some college applicants and/or their parents, but it’s not only they who are working at gaming The System. The schools also are working at changing (i.e., gaming) The System via “enrollment management” philosophies and practices.</p>

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<p>Heck, the cost of tuition & room & board is expensive for everyone, married or single, not many folks have a spare $40,000+/year lying around. </p>

<p>Both parents are required by law to pay their share of their kids’ college education, whether the kids live with them or not. That said, as a practical matter, collecting from a reluctant ex is another story entirely.</p>

<p>Community college & in-state schools offer an option, as does transferring. It may not be ideal, but it is an option that can work.</p>

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<p>Himom, please tell me what law requires parents to pay for a college education; the child support judge reinforced there is no obligation on either side. both my kids are going to state schools, even they are expensive in pennsylvania. I plan on encouraging my kids to take community college courses during summer breaks to cut down on semesters/costs.</p>

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<p>My friend who is newly divorced said that HI family court judge said that both parents of the minor children of the divorce are entitled to have both parents pay for both children’s college education. I don’t specialize in family law, but both parents involved are attorneys & expecting to pay. Other friends I know who are divorced have had varying success getting their exes to help pay for college educations of their joint kids. Next time I speak with my friend, I’ll ask her if she knows whether the law the judge mentioned just applies in HI, to her case, or is broader.</p>

<p>Your kids are fortunate that you’re helping them get a college education. It’s tough that it’s so expensive, but will help them get higher paying jobs than they could get without the college diplomas. Sorry their other parent won’t contribute toward their educations–I’m sure your kids will remember & count their blessings that you are there for them.</p>

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<p>It would be easier to condem gaming the system if I was quite sure where the gaming lines were…pretending to be a resident of a state you haven’t lived in for a few years…gaming</p>

<p>pretending to be a native American because you were born in the US and there was a rumor about a great grand parent…gaming</p>

<p>Under estimating the value of your assets or income…gaming</p>

<p>Responding to pressure to increase retirement savings or to not liquidate certain assets to avoid spiking your income status…gaming or smart?</p>

<p>Pressuring your teacher to increase your grade in exchange for extra credit work??? How about paying for lessons on how to increase your SAT score??? or Paying someone to read and comment on your essays??Are these okay because they are so common? Or are they unfair because others can’t afford the same level of help? Gaming or smart?</p>

<p>How about underdecaring tips? Or spending out your savings to keep assets down? </p>

<p>Or how about declaring a war based on false evidence and then changing your reasons about your justification after thousands of people are killed?</p>

<p>What concerns me is that people game things without even thinking about it…it has become an unconcious decision. Corporate leaders who manipulate the books to maximize their profit taking while ignoring their responsibilities to the employees and stock holders.</p>

<p>This was a good post topic…too many students, parents and schools are gaming the system to benefit themselves.</p>

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<p>Pressuring your teacher to increase your grade in exchange for extra credit work??</p>

<p>I want to address this- it depends
let me splain
My daughter- has a learning disabilty- dyslexia among some other things- that don’t affect her intelligence, but affect her performance.
Some teachers have tests that don’t allow her to show- because of the way they are administerd, that she has mastered the material.
We do work with the teacher- to allow in the case of below a d grade on a test, an alternate assignment of equal rigor.
This I guess could be said to raise her grade- because it is to replace timed quizes that are given verbally that she does very poorly on.
I think that if the teacher allows extra credit work- and wants to take that on, it is up to them- since she does have a verified disabiltiy, she actually should be given the accomodations in the first place, which is what I would prefer.
But for someone who hasn’t done or doesn’t want to do extra make up work, but just wants to argue with the prof over a grade, well…</p>

<p>But this is a particular sore point with me, and I am sure with others who have kids who have IEPs or 504s- (and need them, just as they might need a 504 in the workplace, or they will select a work environment that accomodates them), but aren’t able to get accomodations for instance on the new SATs.
When my older daughter who has ADD as well as a computation and processing disability asked for extended time on SATs, it was given to her, and noted on her test. ( She also had to have a recent psychological test that verified her disability)
I prefer it to be noted on the test. It is in the nature of full disclosure and if a school has a problem that she took extended time for the test, it is not somewhere that she should apply to for college anyway.</p>

<p>But now- because of complaining by somebody, they don’t note that the test has been given with accomodations, but as a result students who really need the accomodations, who have a 504 or even an IEP in school, are being denied accomodations on the SAT test.</p>

<p>It seems to have backfired. I expect teh same kids whose parents are proficient at gaming the system will get extended time, and the kids who have disabilties but whose parents don’t even expect that they will be denied and who wont know what to do, will have to either switch to ACT test, or settle for a score that doesn’t represent how they will do in college.</p>

<p>I expect someone will say we are trying to game the system. I am trying to be my daughters advocate so I don’t see it that way. How I see it is, if she has accomodations, then she is able to learn and participate in society at a higher level than if she didn’t have accomodations, just as if someone who is deaf or paraplegic had accomodations, that permitted them to more fully participate in society.
Does the individual benefit? Sure? But so does the rest of society.
and its the right thing to do :)</p>

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<p>Too many people want to know where the line is where they will get caught. That’s their biggest concern. Because once they know it, they’ll justify any weaselly behavior that they do just short of that line. They’ll say the system is unfair and they are simply looking out for themselves, or everyone else is doing it, or yadda yadda yadda.</p>

<p>I sometimes wonder how many people would be dishonest except they can’t figure out where the caught/get away with it line is…so out of fear they do nothing. I have pondered this a lot because I confess I used to operate this way. I didn’t cheat, I didn’t steal, but it wasn’t out of some moral grounding. It was because I couldn’t stand the possible humiliation of getting busted, sent to the principal’s office, making the teacher mad, having the cops called… I wasn’t moral–I was just obedient.</p>

<p>What really made me examine this was the honor code at the college I attended. It gave me a chance to ponder the value of living honestly, or trusting yourself and others, of doing the right thing because of the intrinsic rewards of knowing you were doing the right thing (not just because it kept you off the hot seat). It’s funny that a strict system set up with pretty intense punishment for dishonesty made me think about being honest even when the threat of punishment wasn’t around. Go figure.</p>

<p>Anyway, posts on CC that seem to be all about “where’s the line–what can I do and not get caught” are very galling. Also risky, because it’s not like people from universities don’t read and post here. Ahem.</p>

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<p>Also risky, because it’s not like people from universities don’t read and post here. Ahem.
yes- we know how addicting this is- and if you are in a admin office it could be called work! I have read about recent students who applied to my daughters college for example, being denied because of comments they posted on LJ. This is public- and it isn’t that hard to figure out who someone is.
I think honor codes are valuable.
Sure we shouldn’t need them, we should all just behave ethically, - we shouldn’t need two or more political parties either, we should all just find the right person for the job but…</p>

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<p>“What happened to personal ethics and responsibility?”</p>

<p>My generation grew up.</p>

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<p>there have always been people who scam the system, now with the internet , they can just be more creative about it, and research on how close they can come before they run the risk of getting caught.
But when we have churches that preach personal prosperity is what God wants for “us”, I think it would be really easy for some to make the jump that anything that keeps money in their wallet is “pre ordained”
<a href=“http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/0345/031105_news_blessed.php[/url]”>http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/0345/031105_news_blessed.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>The wealthy are not the only ones with entitlement problems!</p>

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<p>The amount of extra help wealthy people can afford in the college admissions game (between private advisors, essay coaches, SAT tutors, etc. which is all big business, and can cost a family close to $10K) may not be “gaming the system” per se, but it sure puts those who can’t afford those services at a distinct disadvantage.</p>

<p>The playing field is not in any way level as a result.</p>

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<p>however I think in that case- it is taken into account.
My daughter attended a private school- on scholarship- first gen college from blue collar family. Lower stats than many at her school, good need based aid, enough so that she could attend.
Much advice- available in libraries and online ;), don’t have to spend money to get help.</p>