<p>I want to add that the other problem that the illegal workers are causing is the downgrading of these jobs that are difficult and dangerous. Because these positions are so easily filled here for so little money, so little paper work, so little in terms of care and safety, this becomes the norm for that industry. It cheapens the labor and those who do it.</p>
<p>xiggi, I have never claimed on CC that there is a solitary reason for the journey of Mexicans northward. I have said that there is no comparison between the level of blame of the <em>U.S. populace</em> (which is who the poster in question was in fact <em>blaming</em>) and the responsibility of the Mexican gov’t for the economic plight of Mexicans, in Mexico. Most would not be interested in coming north if there were there were sufficient economic opportunity in their country of origin.</p>
<p>That is precisely what I said & what I was responding to.</p>
<p>Epi, I used your own words (quoted below) to show how easy it is to view posts by others as mired by “surface and very generalized impressions.”</p>
<p>I don’t think it makes much sense to measure the width of the paintbrushes we use to comment on such a complex problem. A forum such as CC does not lend itself very well for more than just a few soundbites. Analyzing the social and economic affairs of Mexico through the microscopic view of the US immigration issues is a fool’s errand. </p>
<p>Being the neighbor of the richest country on earth presents a set of extremely complex issues to a nation that is trying to jump from the third world into the first. </p>
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<p>Quote me all you want to, xiggi. I stand by my assertions that there is no comparison between 2 gov’ts, as to where both the roots & the solutions of Mexican poverty lie. I was responding to a poster who blamed supposed attitudes of U.S. civilians for both the <em>cause</em> of Mexican immigration into the U.S. and the economic results of that immigration, domestically (here).</p>
<p>On probably that thread, & certainly many other threads, I have stated over & over that the U.S. government bears considerable responsiblity for a failure in vision & action, when it comes to aggressive, consistent attempts at repairing the Mexican economic woes, <em>despite</em> whatever level of responsibility Mexican officials bear in those woes. </p>
<p>My record stands as it is, complex as it is, many-faceted as it is.</p>
<p>Simply opening wide our doors and having the U.S. territory be the immediate & long-term solution for immigrants OF ANY LAND, is not an effective & compassionate solution, i.m.o., as more mutual solutions might be. My opinion is as valid as yours.</p>
<p>I have a hard time understanding the lack of sympathy for those who come here trying to make a better life in the US. I don’t like the situation on hand about the illegal immigrants and family, but I don’t have an ounce of rancor towards those who fall into that category. I blame ourselves.</p>
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<p>Amen to that! That is why I objected to the poor characterization you added to my opinion about people and tried to show how easy it was to return the compliment. </p>
<p>Interestingly enough, the solution of opening our borders wide-open might be the most beneficial to the United States in the short- and long-term. </p>
<p>America’s best and most complex poet wrote, “Good fences make good neighbors.” While we are still trying to understand the genius of his statement, we no longer have to learn that “Bad fences make bad neighbors.”</p>
<p>Oh well!</p>
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I have a lot of sympathy and devote a lot of time. However, the problems caused for those of us directly impacted by the illegal immigration crisis are huge and ugly.</p>
<p>xiggi, I don’t see how your assertions in post 66 are parallel at all, to what you previously said & how I responded. You were not discussing per se, opinions about immigration. You were characterizing the people who hold such opinions, just as an earlier poster was on a different thread. You were essentially accusing those who want any kind of limit on immigration (because they wish to consider BOTH the big picture and the little picture) as being impersonal in their views. They are not necessarily impersonal, and I can speak for myself that I am not impersonal in my viewpoint or why I hold it. Quite the opposite.</p>
<p>Post 65:
Again, I will respond to the supposition that those who want an actual policy also “lack sympathy.” The two ideas cannot be artificially linked. And I will repeat, it’s broad-brushing the debate into an “us-vs.-them” opposition. Just because there are in fact xenophobes in the U.S. does not make all people who want a policy which includes some measure of restraint, xenophobes & narrow-minded, let alone supposedly impersonal & thinking of immigrants as “people” in quotes. I really, really take offense at such character-assassination.</p>
<p>epiphany- since you want an “actual policy,” how’s this?</p>
<p>provide a path to legalization for all undocumented people in the u.s. currently (with back-taxes and a fine, criminal background check). beef up border security (no fascist walls, though). institute an effective guest-worker program that ensures proper wages and proper treatment of our guests. </p>
<p>oh wait… sounds a lot like the mccain bill, the same one people like yourself opposed! maybe the reason that people like myself tend to be mistru****l of those who claim to be concerned merely about lawfulness is that it’s abundantly clear that any solution that allows for hispanic immigrants to come out of the shadows seems to be off the table! when i turn on lou dobbs every night and watch him alternating between labelling the entire undocumented mexican population in the u.s. “criminals” and spewing hate toward mexico in general, it’s hard not to make a connection between extreme xenophobia and this intense desire to get rid of “illegal” immigrants.</p>
<p>sorry lillybloom it’s late… so you are for illegal immigration? </p>
<p>Why would you support an illegal activity, if that is the case.</p>
<p>"beef up border security (no fascist walls, "</p>
<p>(1) What the H is a “fascist wall?” Would that be a wall that works?</p>
<p>(2) No, I don’t like your “actual policy.” It’s not well thought-out. </p>
<p>(Oh, and mine doesn’t have fines associated with it. I already explained some of my ideas previously, elsewhere.)</p>
<p>“it’s abundantly clear that any solution that allows for hispanic immigrants to come out of the shadows seems to be off the table!”</p>
<p>It’s abundantly clear that you don’t read even the posts of those on CC who have made constructive proposals for people to “come out of the shadows” with positive incentives.</p>
<p>(Nah. You find it way more fun to use divisive, name-calling rhetoric, while claiming it’s actually <em>other</em> people who engage in name-calling, categorization, & other dehumanizing – yes, dehumanizing – behavior.) But that’s OK. Just keep patting yourself on the back about your supposedly superior level of compassoin. (Not.)</p>
<p>And the above paragraph is directed at all those who cannot seem to find a single gray paint jar among their abundant collection of black paint jars & white paint jars.</p>
<p>What do they say about pots and kettles?</p>
<p>The problem is not those who are here eagerly taking up the work and money hand outs. The problem lies with those who are supplying the work and money. We can open our borders as much as we want and have all kinds of guest worker policies in the world. But as long as the ready labor pool exists, no one will want to pay the wages, follow the rules and go through the troubles that it takes to provide fair, safe working conditions for the type of work that the illegals are doing. THe more workers that immigrate here, the cheaper the wages and fewer jobs will be available. You get a “Grapes of Wrath” situation that to date has not been resolved, just a new group of workers. </p>
<p>Whether I agree with Epiphanies solutions or not, at least she has some that address those here and the future flow. What are the ideas as to what to do about those illegally here and to stem the tide, so that we do not provide a flow of cheap, unsafe labor to those who are offering it to the immigrants and others unfortunate enough not to be able to take more selective jobs? I think some huge penalties to these employers are in order, including jail time.</p>
<p>We need to be careful with some of the inaccurate generalizations in this discussion. So many people see Hispanics walking down the street and think “illegals.” There are plenty of legal Hispanics in this country. There are plenty of illegal Asians, Africans, even Europeans. I work with Brits, Aussies, etc and have asked them if they’ve EVER been asked to prove they’re legal-- nope. My Hispanic coworkers can’t say that. </p>
<p>The other generalization is that illegals are poorly-educated, low-skilled workers. Some years ago, my children’s teacher was found to be illegal. She has a Master’s degree from the US, is entitled to a pension and had something like 5-7 kids, all born in this country. They fired her and she ended up getting public assistance for her kids. (I don’t even know how she did it but her kids were legal. Maybe her exdh was legal?) </p>
<p>We concentrate our discussions on Mexicans because they’re visible but a lot of illegals are NOT caught. They simply overstay their visas. That’s very common on the east coast. They are likely to be Asian, Caribbean, European, African, South American-- a lot of things other than Mexicans. And some of them perform white-collar, educated jobs. </p>
<p>I don’t like it that they break the law. I do value the fact that people are willing to work for their money. I think that one thing that would help tremendously is if we required employers to pay benefits for <em>all</em> workers-- freelance, contract, employees, etc. I think health care should be portable and not tied to a job. Really, if people had to be compensated adequately, the allure of hiring illegals would diminish and our health care problems would diminish. The gap between the richest and poorest Americans has grown and it’s not just about education.</p>
<p>epiphany, i’ve noticed that when responding to others you tend to make the claim that we are somehow crazy because we are missing some essential component to what you are saying. maybe you should make it plainer. </p>
<p>for the record, i didn’t call anyone names.</p>
<p>no, i’m not for “illegal immigration.” i’m for legalizing immigration. maybe some of you don’t realize this, but it is near IMPOSSIBLE for many people (i’m talking specifically about mexicans, because that is what i know the most about) to get worker visas. do you really think that if low-skilled laborers had a way to come here legally, they wouldn’t? of course they would! that would allow them to come and go without fearing deportation or worse, to feel like they are a legitimate part of our society. </p>
<p>what really bothers me is when i hear so many people stereotype illegal immigrants as common criminals. yes, i am aware that living here illegally is a crime (though i’m pretty sure not a felony). but labeling it such constantly appears to have this effect on people where we’re almost equating coming here illegally with being a thief or a rapist. of course i don’t support breaking the law. we should secure our borders for security purposes. but we also need to <em>change</em> laws that don’t make sense and that go against our common interests. </p>
<p>epiphany, what are these constructive proposals you are referring to? how do they deal with the undocumented people already in the u.s., and how do they accomodate the demand for workers here in the u.s.?</p>
<p>lilybbloom,</p>
<p>You might try reading stories of some “legal” immigrants and see what they had to face to become legal, to do it the right way. It is a slap in the face to them to have the illegals come out of the shadows and get blanket absolution.</p>
<p>And no, not every illegal is also a criminal. But their drain on our society is more than I care to pay the tab for. Why should I pay taxes to compensate for the illegals that aren’t?</p>
<p>“I’m for legalizing immigration”… you do realize that there has to be some limits set, no?</p>
<p>In my town there has been an exponential increase of illegals. As I sometimes translate for them, I am impressed that they work multiple jobs that most americans prefer not to have. Far from us “paying the tab” for them, they wind up representing the increase in the labor base that is critical to our “pay as you go” social security system…i.e. they are paying for our retirement even though they most likely won’t be able to claim benefits themselves.</p>
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did you ask unemployed Americans if they’d like to have those jobs? Did you also ask the employers if they’d rather pay less than minimum wage and no benefits for illegals or if they’d like to follow the laws and hire legal workers and cut into their profits?</p>
<p>ratedPG, i don’t need a lecture on the requirements for getting a worker visa. but what you need to realize is that as much as this country is about ideals, we also have to be pragmatic. yeah, it sucks that immigrants who are an ocean away from us have such a hard time getting visas. but the fact is, we have 12 million undocumented people living in this country. we can’t send them back to their countries, it just isn’t feasible. so what is the point of preventing them from becoming regularized? what the heck is the point? i just don’t get it. if it’s a slap in the face to future immigrants from other countries, so be it. we need to start focusing on pratical solutions to our problems. </p>
<p>you’re ****ed about them not paying taxes (which isn’t true, but i’ll concede the point in order to stress my argument)? fine, then let them come out of the shadows, give them a social security number and they can pay taxes like everyone else! why is that so hard?</p>
<p>i understand that people feel threatened by this new wave of immigration. i think it’s mostly a natural feeling, because there is an “american way of life” and when we see people coming in willy nilly it can be a shock to our law-abiding systems. i understand that, and i support spending more money on securing our borders and putting pressure on the mexican government to stem the flow. what i’m concerned about is this intense antipathy toward the undocumented workers already here, people who have families (often children who are american citizens) and roots here, people who hold jobs and go to church and are trying to live the american dream, just like my great-grandfather who came over by way of ellis island. </p>
<p>i’m just really afraid of this nativist sentiment that i see pretty much everywhere i look. CC was the last place i expected to find it, but there you go</p>