<p>lol, Tarhunt.</p>
<p>I’m fine with people teaching the theory of evolution and the theory of intelligent design/ creationism side by side in schools, so long as they also teach my own set of beliefs: [Flying</a> Spaghetti Monsterism](<a href=“http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/]Flying”>Open Letter To Kansas School Board – Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster). All hail his noodly appendage!!!</p>
<p>LOL! I managed to keep a straight face until I got to the part about pirates. :p</p>
<p>hah. good old bob jones. i printed out their rules and gave them to everyone i saw at school, so now it’s like the big joke on campus.</p>
<p>Ah. A fellow Pastafarian.</p>
<p>whats with all these essays yo</p>
<p>I realize it may be a mistake to bring this thread back to the top, but I really wanted to put in a few thoughts. I’m afraid they’re going to be random and unorganized, as I try to comment on various topics that were discussed.</p>
<p>I should admit upfront that I am a conservative Christian. Politically, I don’t really fit into a box - I am against abortion, which pushes me to the right, but I’m also against the Iraq war and the death penalty, which pushes me to the left. </p>
<p>On BJU: This is not a school I would want to attend myself, and I also wouldn’t be thrilled with it as a choice for my children. I am not familiar with the university as much as I am with the textbooks that they publish for Christian schools and homeschools. I don’t use them because of the viewpoint in them, but academically I have to admit they are among the most rigorous textbook choices out there.</p>
<p>I do find it very disturbing that there are such strong feelings about this school. I think this is what Chuck was originally getting at. This angry reaction of people who believe differently is quite shocking to me, because often these are the same people claiming to promote tolerance. It seems to be the moral views of BJU that cause offense: but I think many of those would be shared by Muslims. (correct me if I am wrong, but please do so with kindness!) Do you non-Muslims know anything about Sharia law? The penalties are far greater than BJU’s. Both BJU and Muslims would say: no premarital sex, no adultery, no alcohol, no adult movies, and they both require modest dress. For Muslims it is recognized that this is part of their faith. Why isn’t this understanding given to the group of Christians at BJU? I know the restrictions at BJU go beyond those basic things, but so does Islam. </p>
<p>Muslims and the people at BJU are trying to live out their faith in a world that has very different values than they hold. The comments made by the BJU president about Muslims don’t seem as harsh to me as the comments made by some of the people on this forum about Christians at BJU.</p>
<p>And what is a pseudo-Christian? Are there pseudo-Muslims out there too? If you looked at my life, there would be things to make you question how strongly I hold my faith. But it’s the core of my life! It would be even worse if you could see into my heart - yet I want to be following God, and I love Jesus! </p>
<p>I know that many of you are in the younger generation, and I hope that you will try to see and understand people that are different from you. It’s easy to tolerate people we agree with. (toleration doesn’t mean agreement!) </p>
<p>Just one more note: I remember the saddest thing I saw was in London, when I was out for the day with my children. There was a war protest (this was back when the US first invaded). The most striking thing about it was how ANGRY the people were. How can you win people over to peace by shouting with what looks like hatred? How can you expect anything but narrowmindedness from BJU if you ridicule so harshly?</p>
<p>signing off now, afraid to see what the responses might be…</p>
<p>You’re right. You shouldn’t have brought this back to the top. ;-)</p>
<p>Anger is a manifestation of fear. We do not hate things we do not fear. We are not angry at things we do not fear. I think that, once you understand that, it will all fall into place.</p>
<p>The sort of fundamentalism Bob Jones practices causes fear in others. It causes fear because:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>It is aggressive in its assertion, stated or implied, that is has all the answers and that those who disagree are wrong, immoral, etc.</p></li>
<li><p>This aggression implies that fundamentalists should assume the reins of power and “put things right” at the expense, presumably, of everyone who disagrees with them</p></li>
<li><p>Historically, this sort of monotheistic fervor and attitude, when combined with actual, coercive force, has resulted in severe human rights abuses, especially against Jews (in the Christian world and, to a lesser degree, in the Muslim world), but also against anyone who disagrees</p></li>
</ol>
<p>The amount of the fear has to do with the degree of localized, coercive power that a particular group has at its disposal. What I just described applies to pretty much any “ism,” whether that’s Nazism, communism, democratism/populism (as in the French Revolution and, at times, in Athens), capitalism in its unregulated state, Islamism, and any other one you can think of where one follows an absolute, 100% true creed and all other opinions, by definition, are both wrong and evil.</p>
<p>Islam, in many of its forms and in many places, is at least the equal of the people of BJU when it comes to oppression, and very often more than equal. Where it has access to real coercive power, it is very oppressive, indeed. But here in the US, Islam has little access to coercive force. Neither do communists. Neither do the Nazis and other supremacists groups (yet). </p>
<p>But the fundamentalists have access to a LOT of coercive power through both political activism and local, cultural control in some areas. I grew up in one of those with some of those very scary people. </p>
<p>So, the fear of the sort of people who run and attend BJU is based on a history of oppression from those kinds of people, coupled with their proximity and their access to coercive power. If I lived in Saudi Arabia, I would not fear BJU or talk about it. I would fear the Wahabbists because they would have, potentially, more negative impact on my life.</p>
<p>The “tolerance” thing is used by the pseudos (and I’ll get into pseudos in a moment) a lot. They aren’t tolerant themselves, of course, but insist on it in others. I will proudly admit that I’m intolerant of the intolerant. I’m not tolerant of Nazis, communists (if they’re totalitarian), terrorists, etc. Those people would cheerfully have me dead or “reeducated” if they had enough coercive force to do so.</p>
<p>Now, about the issue of “pseudo.” I have read the NT many times, in many translations. I read it growing up a fundamentalist kid in the KJV, and I’ve read it many times since, but I admit that I’ve read the gospels, especially the synoptics, more than any of the other books. Some of the things in the gospels contradict, such as whether the baby Jesus and his family fled to Egypt or when first to the Temple and then back home, but I don’t really care about that kind of conflict.</p>
<p>What I care about is the overall message; that is, those things that get repeated so often that it seems clear to me that JoN was very serious about them. It seems clear to me that he was an Essene in most of his thinking and teaching. He eschewed personal property and the things of this world and was a pacifist for that reason. And if you look at what we know of early Christian communities; that is, those communities run by people who knew JoN, or knew people who knew him, you find that they are communes of those who eschew the material world and refuse to fight. Gibbon attributes part of the fall of the Roman Empire to pacifism on the part of the early Christians.</p>
<p>And look at Christianity today. Expensive cathedrals and churches. TV shows on how to make money. Praying in public. Constant calls for donations. Militarism is many cases. Mixing nationalism and the cross. </p>
<p>The list goes on.</p>
<p>There may be genuine Christians these days, but I think you’d find them only in very reclusive monastic orders or convents. The fundamentalists are, to my way of thinking, just Pharisees. </p>
<p>And, BTW, the sort of fundamentalism one sees at BJU is also a manifestation of fear rooted in the tenets of cognitive theory and, especially, cognitive dissonance. So, it’s fear meets fear, and aggression is one of the coping mechanisms.</p>
<p>Thanks for your reply, Tarhunt. You’ve articulated a better answer for me than I’ve been able to guess at, for the reason that there is a difference in attitude toward Christians and their morals, and Muslims with theirs. I have been puzzled about this for some time (not to mention slightly offended, being a Christian myself). </p>
<p>I did not grow up in a fundamentalist environment, but I have met a number of people who did, and often they have similar attitudes to yours. I find it quite a difficult thing, because I can see the intent of many (NOT all) fundamentalists who are really trying to walk our their Christian faith; and I can also see the intent of some “anti-fundamentalist” friends of mine, and I know that they are dealing with things as best as they can.</p>
<p>I would agree about the fear issue. There are ways that society is changing that frankly do frighten me sometimes. While I would agree with you in not wanting BJU to run the country, there are quite a few on the other side who scare me even more.</p>
<p>Anyway, thanks for your honesty, and I’m sorry if I’ve stirred things up again. I won’t post anymore, just so this thread can get buried!</p>
<p>Scary… Its probably like Jesus Camp 2: College…</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/0618680004/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-6497382-6756904?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173834548&sr=8-1[/url]”>http://www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/0618680004/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-6497382-6756904?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173834548&sr=8-1</a> (This is quite possibly one of the most brilliant people of our time - this isn’t even his field!)</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0307265773/ref=s9_asin_image_1/102-6497382-6756904[/url]”>http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0307265773/ref=s9_asin_image_1/102-6497382-6756904</a></p>
<p><a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060738170/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-6497382-6756904?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173834591&sr=1-2[/url]”>http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060738170/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-6497382-6756904?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173834591&sr=1-2</a> (Oh no, a bestseller for the New York Times?!?!? It MUST be evil!)</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Ages-America-Final-Empire/dp/0393058662/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-6497382-6756904?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173834694&sr=1-2[/url]”>http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Ages-America-Final-Empire/dp/0393058662/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-6497382-6756904?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173834694&sr=1-2</a></p>
<p><a href=“http://www.amazon.com/American-Theocracy-Politics-Religion-21stCentury/dp/067003486X/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-6497382-6756904?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173834726&sr=1-2[/url]”>http://www.amazon.com/American-Theocracy-Politics-Religion-21stCentury/dp/067003486X/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-6497382-6756904?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173834726&sr=1-2</a></p>
<p>Gah, the stupid site logged me out before I could submit this the first time…don’t feel like elaborating quite as much, this time around. But basically, the first two are refutations by atheists of many of the “popular” positions held for religions and against atheism. The last two have more of a political bent. Misquoting Jesus basically puts forth the idea that the Bible has had so many (mis)translations, omissions, alterations, insertions, and misinterpretations that the book we have today probably does not sound anything like the original. We have no way of knowing what the original “commandments” were, so, even were you to assume that there really is a God and the Bible as it was written (by people who had never met Jesus (if the figure of the Bible even existed) who wrote down the recollections of old men nearly a century after his death) originally is his word, the worship that is put forth by religions in modern times have no connection to the original laws put forth in the Bible before it was basically butchered and mangled for two thousand years. That’s not to mention all of the pagan traditions (not that there’s anything wrong with pagan traditions) absorbed into both Christianity and Islam during their early stages to make it easier to convert people, and the numerous heresies (Arianism, Gnosticism, Catharism, Pelagianism, to name a few of the bigger ones) that were suppressed but have just as much a chance of being true as the “orthodox” view (and, since the Reformation, views).</p>
<p>(****, that was longer than the first time)</p>
<p>I would like to conclude with a quote. Although it is indeed referring to Christianity, I don’t want anybody to think that I am specifically targeting Christianity. This is a great quote because it applies equally to ALL the religions of the world, and it is actually very ironic that the person who spoke these words belonged to a tradition very similar (in the sense of the quote, at the least) to Christianity.</p>
<p>“[… it seems most strange that… ] the Creator of Heaven and Earth resorted to the womb of a certain Jewish lady, grew there for nine months and was born as an infant, and afterwards grew up and was betrayed into the hands of his enemies who sentenced him to death and executed him, and that afterwards… he came to life and returned to his original place…If you have listened all your life to the priests who have filled your brain and the marrow of your bones with this doctrine, and it has settled into you because of that accustomed habit. [I would argue that if you were hearing these ideas for the first time, now, as a grown adult], you would never have accepted them.”</p>
<ul>
<li>Nahmanides, Disputation of Barcelona, 1263</li>
</ul>
<p>guys read this and you’ll all be converted to christianity</p>
<p>ya rly</p>
<p><a href=“http://members.citynet.net/morton/others/philo.htm[/url]”>http://members.citynet.net/morton/others/philo.htm</a></p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Wow third paragraph in and there’s already a joke of a mistake…the Puritans were most certainly fleeing the Church of England, which is more certainly Protestant. England had been Protestant for almost a hundred years when the Puritans sailed for America. The Puritans were basically hardcore Protestants who thought everyone else wasn’t extreme enough…hmm sound familiar?</p>
<p>There are people defending BjU, give me a break… not allowed to wear abercrombie, not allowed to watch movies above a G!!! Lets see oh yeah quiet time at 11pm? To be a christian you don’t have to be a complete nutcase. Ive seen people like this on tv before. There was a lady who would go to funerals of soldiers who died in wars and say they were sinners and going to hell.
BjU isnt religion it is a cult.</p>
<p>Ive argued with people like this before, they told me I am selfish for going to college on top of that, they were already enrolled in college! I asked why she wasnt selfish and she replied saying it was gods calling for her to go but not for me. Its funny how people will bend the truth just to make them feel better.</p>
<p>Anyone wanna go there and see if we can pick up some girls there? I’m sure we can find a few hidden freaks bottled up inside!!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Yeah that’s the Westboro Baptist Church, run by Fred Phelps:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html[/url]”>http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html</a></p>
<p><a href=“http://www.godhatesfags.com/fliers/mar2007/20070302_twenty-six-killed.pdf[/url]”>http://www.godhatesfags.com/fliers/mar2007/20070302_twenty-six-killed.pdf</a></p>
<p>I should warn people that the links are pretty offensive. These people are screwed up.</p>