<p>Of course, but that’s not the point. The point is that a student who invests himself or herself more into the education opportunities than into the “college experience” can get a quality education - almost anywhere. And a reasonably bright kid can slide through any college without learning much and get a piece of paper that may impress people but has little intrinsic value.</p>
<p>You didn’t answer my question about going to a museum with a knowledgeable person. That is the difference between the chance to take a class by someone who is renowned in their field and one who just knows the subject.</p>
<p>I took a healthcare marketing class during my MS program where the instructor described cognitive dissonnance theory in terms of marketing. She did an okay job however, I took social influence from one of the forefathers of this theory Eliott Aronson.
[Elliot</a> Aronson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliot_Aronson]Elliot”>Elliot Aronson - Wikipedia) at UCSC as an undergrad.</p>
<p>His class, was amazing, life changing. My master program was taught at a much lesser school where no one of such statue was teaching. </p>
<p>Could I have just worked hard and learned with the same passion about this theory. NO WAY and I was an excellent student. I learned it because of the quality of education which I received from a better school.</p>
<p>Quality education ‘almost anywhere’ …i disagree 100%, but that shouldn’t be a surprise…</p>
<p>Seriously, a very intelligent student going to a medicore secondary tyoe state school with a student body not up to his/her level would have a miserable time…They likely wouldn’t be challenged enough, and the instructors ,as a whole, couldn’t compare to a better institution</p>
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<p>I didn’t answer your irrelevant question, Lakemom, because it was just that - irrelevant. I’m not talking about self-studying, I’m talking about going to a college with people with PhDs who teach courses in subjects they have mastered and, in many cases, are passionate about. This may come as a huge shock to you, but you can find those people, in droves, at almost any accredited college in the United States. A motivated student who seeks those professors out, takes the most challenging courses available, and applies himself or herself to studies, will get a high-quality education.</p>
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<p>Renowned in their field for what? Professors get renowned in their fields for research and publication, not for teaching ability or passion about transferring knowledge to undergraduates. Yes, some people who are renowned are also gifted and committed teachers, but all too many look at undergraduate teaching responsibilities as a distraction.</p>
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<p>The student who seeks out the challenges can find them at any school. And as I explained to Lakemom above, you can find committed and gifted teachers anywhere - and you can also find unengaged and go-through-the-undergrad-teacing-motions professors anywhere.</p>
<p>I guess you have never taken an art class in college where you paid good money to hear what the instructor had to say about art you are studying. That is the “knowledgeable” person I am referring to. You probably think art classes are also irrelevant. </p>
<p>“This may come as a huge shock to you, but you can find those people, in droves, at almost any accredited college in the United States.”</p>
<p>Are you kidding ?!?. I have been to 5 colleges in my training over 10 years of schooling and there are not droves of those high level people. Each place maybe had one truly memorable make a real difference in your education type of instructor.</p>
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<p>With all due respect, this does not make you an expert.</p>
<p>I am afraid that I am with annasdad on this one. Students get what they put in to the education. My daughter, for example, gets a great education wherever she is because she asks beautiful questions and does so much searching on her own. She is a curious human being who is never satisfied with just reading the book or going to lecture. She has always been this way and once said that she realy didn’t learn anything new until high school because she had done so much reading on her own–math may have been an exception.</p>
<p>From my very limited experience, the difference between my effort in undergraduate school and graduate school was significant. I got a much better education in grad school because of my effort. I would also note that often the most well-known professors are not the ones who enjoy teaching undergraduates though those people do exist. </p>
<p>A friend of mine has a daughter who attends a fancy little LAC and the family pays full freight. Last year, one of her “professors” was a grad student from a state university in the Pacific Northwest.</p>
<p>I absolutely don’t claim to be an expert but “droves” really “droves” of excellent professors at almost any accredited college in the US. </p>
<p>I guess all those students who post here on cc or the other college review sites I go to about their mediocre classes and professors but cite one or two amazing ones are not part of the group of students who are self learners and hard workers.</p>
<p>And again, you cannot compare your grad school education with your undergrad one. You are a different person that many years later.</p>
<p>Having attended one of the type schools i describe(secondary state type) i can tell you it was mediocre at best…many of the instructors were adjunct,who used the teaching to generate additional income,many were lay people in differing lines of business…when a student had to correct the ‘teacher’ often about the course work and mistakes made by the teacher, it speaks poorly of the school…i consider myself somewhat intelligent, but i didn’t view myself asa top student, yet i graduated with a 3.9, was given the Business Department award…</p>
<p>Many students that attended the school were not engaged at all, and if they are not engaged,it makes it difficult for the teachers to be engaged…can a very driven student get an education at any institution? Yes, can they get a ‘great’’ education and be challenged by peers and professors there? No…</p>
<p>Now we can debate what is a secondary type state school and what is not…and just to flame those who think private LAC’s are a waste of resources,i think in general,the secondary type state schools are the biggest ripoff, as their graduation rates are weak, and this is where many students get in the debt trap…for every NYU story about a student being 100k in the whole, there is a hundred stories about those attending medicore schools ,dropping out and having 15k of debt…no degree,no job, no future…</p>
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<p>You are correct. I never took an art class in college of any sort. To my detriment, I might add. But I did take a number of classes taught by <gasp> adjuncts who were knowledgeable, committed, and dedicated teachers, and from whom I learned things that have served me well in the nearly four decades since I took them.</gasp></p>
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<p>Where in the name of heaven did you ever come up with that? I think nothing of the sort. </p>
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<p>Who was comparing a grad school education with an undergrad one? If you want to debate the issue, may I suggest we confine ourselves to refuting arguments that have actually been made?</p>
<p>I compared undergrad to grad to make the point that an engaged student learns more. ;)</p>
<p>qdogpa, I won’t dispute that many students at “secondary state schools” are unmotivated and not ready for college, or that there are mediocre professors there, or that you can graduate from such a place without learning much. But I know too many people who have gone to such places, gotten excellent educations because they were determined to get an excellent education, and gone on to successful careers.</p>
<p>I’m loath to get into specific anecdotes, but one stands out. I know a young lady who spent her first two years at a <double gasp=""> community college; then transferred to a non-flagship state school (turning down the flagship for financial reasons); overloaded and took enough courses to qualify for the CPA exam as soon as she graduated, passing it on the first try; graduated with zero debt; got a high-paying, responsible job; was admitted to the executive MBA program at one of the most highly respected B-schools in the country, on her employer’s dime; and is now CFO of a mid-sized manufacturing company with an income of over $200K. Did I mention she’s 28 years old?</double></p>
<p>To a certain extent I agree with Annasdad. You can find excellent professors in very interesting places because they choose to live there. You can find programs that are known for their excellence in places that are not mentioned much on CC like the pharmacy program at Ferris. In the public system sometimes the flagship does not have the program that the other flagship has…Montana, California and Michigan states and unis come to mind. It’s difficult to generalize. There are great professors everyone…and bad professors everywhere and absent undergrad professors everywhere I would suspect even in the hallowed grounds of HYP. I doubt many of us would disagree that it is a mistake to take on huge debt simply because of the name of the college.</p>
<p>Annasdad, i can agree that there are stduents who can follow the route you describe and be successful,without question…However, what you describe is not the norm,and is an exception…way too many medicore students attend a college becuase they have drank the proverbial ‘Kool Aid’,that college is a necessity for everyone…when in fact,it isn’t …these type students typically take on modest amounts of debt,dropout, and find themselves toiling in jobs that don’t/shouldn’t require a college degree…there is no shame in a working in a trade…</p>
<p>Annasdad, my statement came from yours;</p>
<p>“I didn’t answer your irrelevant question, Lakemom, because it was just that - irrelevant.”</p>
<p>I think we can all agree that there are excellent and poor teachers everywhere but the trick is how to figure out where they are and that takes a fair amount of research. If you don’t know what your student’s major the way momofthree boys points out about regarding the superior pharmacy program at Ferris then you try to shoot down the middle and go to the best place you can afford with the broadest range of majors or as least a school that has solid prereq type of classes which most all students will need to take the first couple of years.</p>
<p>My son is interested in engineering. The first two years of classes are practically the same everywhere but if one can, start someplace where you can figure out the connections or the reputations of the higher level teachers for the second two years early on, that I think is worthy.</p>
<p>Here’s the take on the subject by the director of admissions of a little college in New Haven that you might have heard about.</p>
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<p>[url=<a href=“http://admissions.yale.edu/looking-beyond-college-rankings]Looking”>http://admissions.yale.edu/looking-beyond-college-rankings]Looking</a> Beyond the College Rankings | Yale College Admissions<a href=“with%20%5Bb%5Demphasis%5B/b%5D%20added%20by%20annasdad”>/url</a>.</p>
<p>qdogpa, I’ve already said that I know there are mediocre students at every college.</p>
<p>More so at mediocre schools</p>
<p>Moreso at schools with lower admission standards, which say nothing about the quality of the education delivered to the students who seek it out.</p>
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If that’s the case, I would personally prefer the lesser school with the more animated style of teaching, except perhaps in a sculpture class.</p>
<p>MisterK, you did see the carriage return between these different thoughts right?</p>
<p>Clearly these are separate examples.</p>
<p>The lesser school, my MS program, did not do justice in explaining this Psych theory compared to learning it from one of the originators, Elliott Aronson. His style actually was casual, he chatted with 300 students as if he was sitting in Starbucks having coffee with you.</p>