<p>I guess I, along with millions of others, have not reached the level of sophistication so as to eschew watching others engage in athleticism. Although I enjoy batting the ball around a little myself, I still enjoy watching someone else who can make it look a whole lot prettier than I can. Again, what’s the big problem here? I don’t think the Florida Gators would have gone as far as they did without coaches and trainers. I’m more than willing to pay for someone to work with a university orchestra or theater group as well (and not all of them are majoring in music).</p>
<p>If you play in a university orchestra or do any kind of fine arts work in college, changes are you’re earning <em>academic credit</em> for doing so.</p>
<p>I think the Florida Gators should spin off and create their own franchise independent of the university, like the farm system in baseball which I think is far more logical.</p>
<p>While the coaches of some big-time revenue sports like football and basketball do take home huge salaries (but they do bring in revenue, after all), most other coaches take home a very modest salary, much less than the average university professor. </p>
<p>So kassos, maybe you can rationalize it this way: Paying the coach to coach his/her athletes is the same as paying a professor to teach his/her students. Think of the sport as a class you will never elect to take. I never took physics, but the physics professor was still paid out of my tuition.</p>
<p>“If you play in a university orchestra or do any kind of fine arts work in college, changes are you’re earning <em>academic credit</em> for doing so.”
Absolutely not true, depending on the school.</p>
<p>“I think the Florida Gators should spin off and create their own franchise independent of the university, like the farm system in baseball which I think is far more logical.”</p>
<p>I don’t think some of you quite understand how many students (and not necessarily student-athletes, either) schools like Florida State would lose if they didn’t have major sports programs. I know of several FS nonathletes who would have chosen a different school if there were no football, basketball, etc teams… and I know of several alum who would no longer donate money (which the school uses for things other than sports.)</p>
<p>Bay, that might sound reasonable to me except like I said in the OP, sports are <em>not</em> academic at all.</p>
<p>unwritten, I don’t get it, are hundreds of thousands of retired New Yorkers moving to Florida because they like the Florida Marlins over the New York Yankees, or is it because of the nice weather?? If students go to a school not based on the quality of teaching and academics, but based on the sports program, then that’s a huge shame. What are they going to college for then?</p>
<p>Playing in a university orchestra or doing any other kinds of fine arts work (like theater, painting, etc. I suppose?) earns academic credit? Well, not where I went to school. I was in hard science labs, with a crushing reading load for English Lit., while also participating in multiple scene workshops and doing lead roles in mainstage plays and got absolutely no credit whatsoever for that.</p>
<p>I don’t know where you went to school, but no one I knew in orchestras, chorales, bands, or what have you got a single credit for that.</p>
<p>unwritten:</p>
<p>I agree with you that, without football, FSU and many other schools would have no selling points except for price (in-state). They’re basically McSchools. They are indistinguishable from one another except for school colors, mascots, and athletics of some sort. As for alums donating money, I believe that there are probably a few out there, but the data say that donations to areas other than sports, on a long-term basis, are not based on having sports teams or on sports success.</p>
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<p>Unfortunately, kassos, I believe that unwritten is correct. If you had been lurking on these boards for a while, you would have seen threads started by students who don’t want to attend a university that doesn’t have big time athletics. And this board tends to draw a quality of student at or near the top of the potential applicant pool.</p>
<p>Take a place like Florida State. What’s the academic difference between, say, Florida State and, say, Drexel? I don’t know. I’m sure someone could point out particular departments one has that the other hasn’t got, or particular areas in which one is stronger than the other, but to the avererage student looking for a school, FSU promises sun, fun, skin, parties, puking as a competition sport, and FOOTBALL!!!</p>
<p>FSU has a lot of undergrad slots to fill. They need football.</p>
<p>Tarhunt, if that’s the reality for the big state schools then so be it. I go to a small liberal arts college in the midwest with a semi-successful D3 athletics program, so my perspective is different. I went to some of the football games freshman year, they were ok. But recently I’ve started to question the need for such a program as the quality of the students involved in sports, especially football, on the whole, is lower than those who are just here for the academics. If you’re a student athlete who spends countless hours at practice and goes on trips to compete in tournaments, I mean are you <em>really</em> here to get an education or are you at college just to play sports?</p>
<p>There’s another important reason for college sports programs (I’m thinking particularly of smaller schools with a high % of student participation in varsity athletics): students and their parents demand them, just like they demand an orchestra, nice dorms, an opportunity to perform in theater productions, a college newspaper, etc. </p>
<p>Maybe a more interesting question than “what’s the point” is is how a college balances sports programs with the institution’s academic mission. Sports teams both support that educational mission (many posts have spoken eloquently about this), and also simultaneously undermine it in ways that aren’t typical of most other activities (athletes in high profile sports often underperform academically, are disproportionately involved in disciplinary cases at many schools, cluster in majors perceived as undemanding, etc.)</p>
<p>kassos:</p>
<p>The issue of sports at small, D3 schools is an interesting one. I doubt they bring in many top students. I doubt they increase either the quantity or quality of those who apply. In fact, I doubt they have much purpose at all save for the idealistic ones of promoting leadership, etc. for those who participate. I can’t say if those ideals are achieved or not, or to what degree.</p>
<p>Marathonman thanks for that important post. I do believe that sports can improve one’s educational experience due to scientific reasons relating to health and fitness. That’s why I support intramural athletics.</p>
<p>I also appreciate the reason you gave. I will accept any logical, scientific or rational reason why an academic institution would spend a lot of money and resources on sports. If it’s in such huge demand then that would be understandable.</p>
<p>MarathonMan:</p>
<p>That’s a very interesting point you’re making. From personal experience, I’m not quite sure how to evaluate it. I’ve had only one child recruited for athletics, and I know that he wasn’t particularly chuffed at the idea of spending the amount of time it would take to compete, knowing he would neve be among the very best at his sport. Perhaps there are other high school athletes out there who are dying to play intercollegiate sports in college. I suppose there must be.</p>
<p>If I were in complete charge of my university, I would require any student involved in organized sports to pay an Athletics Fee which would fund the coaches/trainers salaries and stadium maintenance fees. If that happened, I would have ZERO complaints about the sports program at my school.</p>
<p>
Well, last year it was. Sheesh. C’mon, Bobby! Go 'noles! ;)</p>
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That would include club sports by that loose of a definition. D spends that much time at Ultimate Frisbee. (Which appears to be the sport of future anarchists. LOL.)</p>
<p>And folks at D3 schools , most especially including kassos, a substantial percentage of the student body is involved, and when you add in the cheerleaders, pep band, student trainers…well, I think competitive athletics at D3 schools are even MORE defensible than at D1 schools. And as far as quality of student recruited at D3 schools , again - you can pick your school as they vary. I am more familiar with women’s athletics and in my experience , the GPA’s of women’s athletes are the equal or better of the students at large. (Somewhat interestingly, at least to me, the same appears to be true of the male athletes who play Ultimate.)</p>
<p>My D supports all her friends’ efforts from recitals to field hockey and everything in between. It’s what you do.</p>
<p>Kassos, recommend you spend some time talking to, and in the presence of, actual student athletes, trainers, coaches, and even employers who hire athletes. As some have already posted, results are going to vary by school, but the range of talent and academic accomplishment might change your thinking. </p>
<p>If I’m not mistaken, one of the starters (one of the quarterbacks?) in the recent BCS bowl has a 4.0 in a challenging major, and plans to attend Stanford law school. On my daughter’s (D-1) team, there are engineering, pre-med, philosophy, biochem, biology, and other challenging majors. And - the one semester that the team’s gpa dropped, the head coach ordered MANDATORY study hall for every single student who had a gpa <3.2 for the semester. Didn’t matter if you were an upper classman or not, or if you just missed with a 3.1. That meant seven total hours per week in monitored study hall, with the academic advisor for athletics reporting back to the coach to verify everyone complied. </p>
<p>For certain, there are some who major in subjects that appear to be very weak (or perhaps just misunderstood), however, if you looked at it another way - take the average basket weaving major (is there really such a thing?) - might be interesting to see the percentage of students declaring who are NOT athletes. </p>
<p>Bottom line, when you have a student who commits 20 hours a week, engages in intense training that requires leaving home six mornings a week at 5:00 a.m., has 3:00 p.m. weight training x four days, flys all over the country all year for competition, snares a hard science degree with > 3.0 gpa, also works 5 - 10 hours per week at an unrelated job on campus, serves in student government, and also holds regional EC, the result is a curiously interesting person at the end of four years. And there are many, many student athletes that fit this profile, and quite a few who are extraordinarily accomplished in the classroom and community, in addition to their sports accomplishments. </p>
<p>Even the process of just being a competitive athlete gains one an extensive education in nutrition, training techniques and physical fitness, psychology and mental fitness, individual and team motivation, pharmacology, and even media relations.</p>
<p>Unwritten- Re post 65-
The Florida Gators are not FSU! Akkk! The Noles and the Gators are rivals.</p>
<p>Kassos- plenty of students from our kids high school, good college material, want to go to D3 schools so they can BOTH study and play varsity sports. They may, or may not, be D1 material, but they’re serious students and want to have it both ways. I guess that kind of goes along with what Tarhunt is saying about it being a marketing tool.</p>
<p>At my alma mater, a D3 school, athletics - both participation and spectator - are far more dominant, and play a far greater role in campus life than at my flagship state u.</p>
<p>Wasn’t always that way - the Dawgs useta be good.</p>