<p>People often seem to forget that humans are animals, and have basic–VERY basic–urges. If you look past the surface, you’ll often see that what’s really driving men to achieve prestige, wealth, fame, etc, is not those things as ends in themselves, but how those things increase their attractiveness to potential romantic partners…and put them in a better position to maximize the quality and quantity of those with whom they might get romantic. Guys go to great lengths to disguise their deep and brutish desires…even sometimes pretending to be interested in ballroom dancing and art museums. But they’re not fooling me.</p>
<p>^^Yeah, Harvard degree = chick magnet. All the major players in the swinging singles scene have Ivy League diplomas. You can’t get to first base without one.</p>
<p>But wait, if going to college at a high-end school is merely one more tool (albeit a very time consuming, expensive, and inefficient one) that men use to get their brutish way with women, why do so many women want to go there too? Must be something else going on</p>
<p>How about something as simple as this:</p>
<p>People value higher education.</p>
<p>Elite universities have (a) the most, best faculty in the greatest number of fields, (b) the highest concentration of top students, and (c) the highest capital resources per student. All of which translates into a richer, more enjoyable educational experience. And the “brand” attracts respect from others.</p>
<p>Why does there have to be more to it?</p>
<p>Other types of institutions offer slightly different balances of factors, and people can rationally prefer them (e.g., elite LACs, cheap, high-quality public universities) to what we are calling “elite” universities. But enough people prefer the elite university package so that they have maintained their popularity, to say the least.</p>
<p>“Elite universities have (a) the most, best faculty in the greatest number of fields, (b) the highest concentration of top students, and (c) the highest capital resources per student.”</p>
<p>Hmmm. On the first two criteria, isn’t UC Berkeley number 1?</p>
<p>I guess it fails on the third criteria.</p>
<p>“But wait, if going to college at a high-end school is merely one more tool (albeit a very time consuming, expensive, and inefficient one) that men use to get their brutish way with women, why do so many women want to go there too? Must be something else going on”</p>
<p>Women like brutes?</p>
<p>dstark: (a) Of course Berkeley is an elite university. (b) I don’t think it has “the highest concentration” of top students vs. some of the others, though. And it has issues with the last criterion, too.</p>
<p>dstark: </p>
<p>Size matters. Just as LACs were too small, state universities such as Berkeley, however stellar their faculty and students, are too large for S. Like Goldilocks, S decided that mid-sized research universities were neither too big, nor too small but just right. ;)</p>
<p>^^^^^^rotfl!</p>
<p>Marite, of course size matters. ;)</p>
<p>What about access to world class art, music, theater, experts, political candidates, and so on? My d seeks admission to a selective school, and one of the main reasons is that she wants to touch a manuscript, look into the eyes of a world leader, and so on. We live in a small, relatively isolated city. Our only museum’s main brag is a two-headed calf. My d is drooling over the daily cultural offerings and collections available on many of these campuses, and in the cities surrounding them.<br>
The classroom part of the education is not the whole story.</p>
<p>I think there is another simple explanation for high-achieving kids: they are used to being the best at what they do. So they want to go to the school that is the best. To determine which schools are best, they look at where the best students tend to go.</p>
<p>In my view, or at least my personal experience, it is not like my kids were trying to determine which schools are “the best” but selectivity mattered in the sense that it would mean that a certain level of student would be attending and a certain level of challenge in the academics at the school. It was sorta akin to why they took Honors classes vs. the regular track classes in high school. They would have been unhappy in the regular track classes. </p>
<p>If it was about being the “best”…well, they could have gone to a less selective school where they’d be at the top of the heap. However, they chose more selective schools where there were many more like them.</p>
<p>soozievt, you said it all. I thought you were describing my son. I can see why both our kids chose Brown (and why Brown chose them). These types of kids thrive in a challenging, enriching environment. Most likely they selected the hardest, most demanding (most stimulating) teachers in HS and avoided the “easy” classes because they were boring. They filled their “free time” with activities just as demanding because they “wanted” to, not because it “looked good.”</p>
<p>I don’t think my son is unique - there are similar kids at all schools (but in different amounts). I think MOST kids chosen to attend selective schools share this same attitude and have shown this passion throughout their lives. I’ve attended 4 different colleges and my mom was a college prof. At less selective schools, I’ve seen too many students with little interest in learning, who bring little to the classroom discussion. Perhaps this environment would be best for those students who thrive as “the big fish” and don’t need to be surrounded by others like them. Lots of choices out there for everyone.</p>
<p>jerzgrlmom…that’s really it in a nutshell for my kids. Perhaps Brown saw a match/fit with my D because everything she has chosen to do was never to “look good” for college but for reasons of a strong desire to do all the many things she was involved in during high school (and is again overloaded in college!). She takes on things she just really really wants to do even if it means a way more challenging lifestyle. Academically, she would beg to accelerate if something wasn’t challenging enough. If she exceeded what the HS offered, she would engage in independent studies for credit. There is a level of motivation and drive that simply exists. It is not like we have ever asked our kids to get involved in this or that. They just want to do all these things and if anything, do too much (if there is such a thing). They crave pursuing their interests, being involved, and also challenges academically. So, maybe the college saw that. I happen to see that as a common thing that many of their peers at their colleges also possess and so they are not exactly unique in this fashion. It is hard to explain to those who don’t understand…such as my mother…why they have taken on more than they HAVE to. They want to. I try to tell her that this is typical of the students they go to school with, even if not typical of students she knows. Anyway, my kids like mixing with kids who are similarly driven. It is part of their college experience to be amongst such peers. They like being with those who have similar drive and share passions. </p>
<p>I recall in HS, my older D coming home from health class which was the only non-tracked class she had and so a cross section of students were in it as it was required. She absolutely hated it. She would do the homework when many did not. She would work hard on her presentation and nobody cared or would listen and misbehaved. It was nothing like her Honors classes. She also was displeased in certain middle school classes as those were not tracked and so she and my other D had accomodations made to accelerate with some high school classes and also do independent studies as they deplored classes that were too easy. </p>
<p>Like you say, some care more to be the big fish in a less selective school. Mine would rather be surrounded by other big fish. I have been actually amazed that even among other big fish at their selective schools, that they have managed to stand out in certain ways or be selected for this or that or lead certain things. It was hard to really know that could ever happen coming from a very small rural area, and being among kids who came from well known high schools, more opportunities, and so on. I just know that they are having the time of their lives. I never cared which college they went to but could not be more pleased that they found the right fit. A selective school is the right match for them as they are happy there and that’s all I care about. They are thriving and keep saying how much they love their schools and the opportunities that have come their way due to be where they are.</p>
<p>I just want to clarify that I’m not putting down less selective schools (I got two PMs saying I was). I was trying to answer WHY some students prefer selective schools. I was just stating MY son’s experience (and my own and my mom’s) with different types of schools and students at them. </p>
<p>Against my parents’ wishes, I turned down selective schools for state schools, where I made the most of the opportunities available and was relatively happy - and I graduated debt free. Looking back, I think my main school was a bit larger (and impersonal) than I would have preferred, but I also did exchange programs at smaller schools (which I enjoyed but would have felt smothered in for 4 years). So, I found a way to make the most of what each school offered and it worked out very well. In fact, I was offered a job by one of my adjunct profs a month before I graduated - a fabulous job I enjoyed and thrived in - so it couldn’t have worked out any better. So no judgements here about what type of school is best. There are many, many choices out there. Students need to find the schools which fit their individual needs the best. It doesn’t really matter what anyone else does.</p>
<p>My DD is at RIT - a school some would not consider selective. She wanted a graphic design program within a college environment (in the northeast). She avoided more selective schools that had less intensive design curriculums, because that was her main criteria. She compromised on location, weather and social life. But she’s now talking about more selective schools for grad school.</p>
<p>jerzgrlmom, while I didn’t get any PMs, I feel as you do in what you clarified. I think less selective schools are just as good as selective ones and students can get a fine education at them. I do not think more selective schools are better schools. That’s the whole point. It is about which school environment fits a student the best. I am sure my kids could have gone to less selective schools, gotten a good education, thrived, and been fine. If given a choice, which they luckily did have, they chose schools that fit them well. They didn’t prefer more selective schools because those schools are the best but only prefered them for which were best for their needs and interests. Actually, my older child, when handed her acceptances, narrowed them down to a final list to consider. She knocked an acceptance at an Ivy off her final “revisit so I can decide where to attend” list. She prefered two non-Ivies, that were less selective (though still selective but just not as much) than one of the Ivies she was admitted to and even as one of 100 “scholars” there. It came off the final decision list. She liked the fit of the others better. She cared that she attended a selective school but once she was in at many selective schools, she picked the best fit and didn’t care which was ranked higher or lower or had a lower rate of acceptance. As long as it was a challenging and selective school, many other “fit” factors came into play. In other words, she was not going to simply attend the most selective school on her list that she got into. It wasn’t about the “best school” but the “best for me” school. Selectivity/challenge level was one criteria she cared about in order to be appropriately challenged and to be among other similarly motivated students. But once that bar was achieved, all the other criteria mattered just as much. That criteria was personal and would not be some other kid’s list of college criteria. Even availability to continue one of her passionate sports was high on her list. Other factors also mattered but I won’t bore you. :D</p>
<p>soozievt, many people questioned my son’s decision to turn down higher ranked Yale to attend Brown. There’s just no pleasing everyone.</p>
<p>^^ jerzgrlmom…that right there tells me your son is a good fit at Brown. I think that is how kids there tend to think. I recall going to ADOCH (April event for admitted students) and there were others there trying to choose between Yale and Brown. My own kid also liked Yale but was deferred EA and then denied. But she liked them equally at the time in HS. There are students on CC who would say, “no brainer…go to Yale” if given these options because they care about rankings and prestige. But the kids I have met at Brown, often don’t care as much about that. My kid didn’t, nor did yours. It’s a school that attracts a certain type of kid. That’s why fit is the big factor, not which is more elite or more selelctive. However, that said, these kids still crave selective college learning environments for the level of challenge in class and the level of motivation/drive of their fellow students. But once they can find selective and challenging schools, they go for fit along various other types of college criteria.</p>
<p>I still see the compulsive drive to achieve, and to have and be the best (as opposed to just comfortably above average), as often being a symptom of striving to maximize one’s attractiveness to the intended romantic demographic. The most obsessively competitive would seem to be the most insecure, and the ones trying to compensate for God-given shortcomings. Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to get my Yugo started and go to an alumni get-together down at Wayne Newton Community College.</p>