To my AA pen pals. You win.
I agree with @ZeeTee
I forgot to add that while race has very significant links to socioeconomic class, it’s not absolutely right every time. I did see affluent Hispanics and black people, and they shouldn’t get the benefits of AA.
I understand while AA exists, and it’s not the best but at the same time I think Holistic admission already does what AA is meant to
I’m a pretty average middle class white dude. But what I think a lot of you fail to understand is truly the perception of URMs in society and how that affects people’s day to day lives. I’ve been fortunate enough to be surrounded by a very diverse mix of ethnicities since I was in kindergarten, and everyone I’ve met was brilliant and passionate about something they were doing. But when you see how certain people are perceived when in reality they aren’t much different from yourself, I am all for AA and whatever potential boost it could give applicants. The sad thing is, people don’t see class, they just see color, and that is the problem with America.
Yep. As long as racism exists, AA should continue.
A few things based on what I have read here. There are good points made by most:
“As long as racism exists, AA should continue.”
- The assumption here is that racism is only perpetrated against URMs; it is not.
- AA’s continuance, irrespective of what is going on in the rest of society, will keep racism alive. Race-based admissions decisions are racist per se.
That said, sometimes AA is OK. I’m more in line with the “Socioeconomic AA” camp mostly, while acknowledging unfairness in our society: it was often very difficult for a minority person to find stable work or to take out a business-starting loan until the 1960s. That means that while non-URM families have had 100+ years to build capital, many minority families have had about two generations to do so. And hiring practices are not always fair, to this day.
We’re in a pickle: we are not going to end racism (ever) probably, no matter what we do. Legislating racism keeps it alive and ignoring it likely will too. The best we can do is to teach our kids to respect and be good to others and to evaluate them based on actions/merit, not on color or anything else the person cannot control. (That goes for everyone, not just the members of selected groups.) It’s among the worst forms of bigotry and (when acted upon) discrimination, a disease we need to fight. But we are humans and flawed.
^^^^
Well said
@prezbucky
Actually, by its very definition, racism can only occur against minorities. Sure, there can be people prejudiced against white people, but racism stems from a systematic oppression by people with privilege against those who do not have it.
Affirmative Action hopes to somewhat even out the scale between these two groups. One has to look at the broad spectrum and realize that after graduation, URM’s will statistically be more likely to have difficulty finding a job, getting paid the same, or even treated the same as a white person with the same credentials. The situation becomes a lot more complicated when you factor in socioeconomic statuses, but even affluent minorities experience racism (see the case of the doctor from New Jersey who was pulled over by the police over 100 times over three years because his car was notoriously expensive.)
Affirmative Action does not discriminate against white people. It only attempts to try to undo the decades or even centuries of discrimination.
I with all the people you say socioeconomic AA is the way to go but having this would not necessarily be a good thing because it would eliminate need blind admissions. I could perhaps even work in the other direction unless a quota system was implemented. For example if an Ad Com saw my application now they would see “asian-caucasian male, decent but not spectacular ACT, good EC’s, good essays, good teacher recs.” But if they saw my parents income they may think, “How in the world is he going to pay this much when his parents make less than the yearly tuition?” That would require them to either a) reject me or b) talk to the financial aid office to make sure that I get enough money to go there. This would slow the admissions process DRAMATICALLY and/or lead to worse socioeconomic discrimination. The only way I would think to combat this would be to hire another bunch of people to assign a number to someones income which would be passed on to the ad com. For example on a scale from one to ten, ten being the highest, someone making $25k or less would be a 10. But colleges would never do that and it also opens another can of worms as to “who determines the income structures? Where do these calculations come from?”
In summary I would love to see socioeconomic AA, but implementing it would be HARD.
Standardized test taking, because no single exam should be weighted that much in any decision, much less one that dictates where a student will spend four years of his/her life. Intelligent kids can have test anxiety, and many students are amazing at reading or math but terrible at the other, which effectively plummets their score. It also gives those with the resources to hire tutors and taking prep courses an advantage based on learning how to “crack the test” or by using tricks and shortcuts, not through actual merit. I understand the logic behind putting everyone applying to colleges on a level playing field, but I think a system where a student chooses one or two SAT Subject Test-like exams in whatever subjects they choose to submit to colleges would be much more effective.
I believe you have subscribed to a narrow definition of racism, which is fine.
I googled the word and found this underneath the main definition:
“prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior.”
I think even that is too narrow; you don’t have to think you are superior to dislike or treat someone differently based on their color. You might be doing it just because they are different.
Surely you don’t think that white people are the only ones who believe or act thus.
When someone says “I hate white people,” do you not think that is racist? If not, how would you define it? Race-related bigotry or discrimination? If so, why is that not included in the term “racism”?
Or when one college or job applicant is given preference over another based on race (whatever race…)… that is racial discrimination. Should that not also be under the “racism” umbrella?
If we are only arguing semantics, then we aren’t really arguing. hehe. I just want to make sure we are essentially on the same page. 
It is odd that asians are not considered URM in spite of being true minority. It is also odd that stereotyping asians is considered perfectly fine but stereotyping others is not! It is false to assume that all asians are rich and privileged. Further, asians also have plethora of colors in them. Again, it is some how acceptable to think asians don’t face any discrimination in non-academic life - I think the difference is they just don’t talk about it much. It all just seems very odd to me!
I also want to say in favor of those students who come from underprivileged homes, have fought to persist and get solid grades - if that student does THAT in unfavorable circumstances, how much farther she will go when she gets a supportive environment? Those students by all means should get the helping hand!
Everyone please, take a minute and imagine schools without Affirmative Action… done? What do you get? An overpopulated Asian community that has the highest test scores and the best GPA. Consider diversity and consider the idea that some people don’t have it as easy as you. As an Asian-American (indian) myself, I endorse the idea of Affirmative Action. I can still get into a good school with it being in effect and other races that may be disadvantaged because of their history get their chance. If you have ever studied American history, you see the setbacks the certain races have endured. Some can’t afford prep books/study aids; some can’t go to that prestigious summer program or don’t have the knowledge that those programs even exist; some aren’t brought up with parents that emphasize college and encourage them. It’s a basic standard of this nation’s population.
Well, it already doesn’t exist for college admissions in CA, MI, FL and 5 other states. And last time I looked, the UC schools & UMich seem to be doing fine w holistic admissions granting special consideration for low SES.
@prezbucky that definition of racism is wrong because it doesn’t describe fully the institution of racism in places like America. Ask yourself why haven’t African Americans effectively taken over American an oppressed white people systemically. Sure anybody can be prejudiced, but racism as a system requires POWER. Blacks DO NOT have institutional backing to oppress whites.
An no it is not a minority/majority situation because we’ve seen small minorities oppress majorities historically. The difference is prejudice AND power.
That is why blacks women etc CANNOT be racist, sexist in the sense of the most helpful definition of these words.System racism is an anomaly that must be defined.
I guess I’m talking about personal racism then.
It seems like there is a double-standard for behavior: some people can say and do hateful things and be (more or less) pardoned, while others end up in the paper. My point is, we all need to be held to the same standard as resoonsible individuals. I hear a lot of excuses for poor behavior and poor results, but nobody wants to take responsibility.
Yes, I’d agree with that. I’m happy honestly that you are at least thinking about this
But yes when you say personal racism that is what people know call race based discrimination based on prejudice. Yes it is just as bad as racism and there is debate over what to call it.
But to clarify for everybody these apparently new definitions serve to deal with this weird and very real situation of why are minorities not able to over come the system, how do whites continue to dominate society? Obviously the goal is not a coup, but racism needs to be defined in such away that understands why the Senate isn’t majority black and why doesn’t it seem reasonably possible.
And fundamentally all white, male, higher class etc people (not specifically the union of these sets, but rather the intersection of them–that is I am not saying a person with all of these traits, but with any of these and other privileged groups) on this thread TRY TO AT LEAST THINK OF WHAT I AM SAYING BECAUSE it is very important when someone claims “certain group cannot be racist or whatever.” It doesn’t mean they are morally exempt, it means society is structured inherently such that certain groups have systemic powers to oppress.
Okay, I’m not sure how this thread morphed into another AA/definition of racism debate, but this requires me to throw in my expertise and hopefully y’all will PLEASE stop before this thread gets closed down.
To all the white people saying AA is unfair when it applies to well-off/middle class URMs:
You do not know what it’s like to go to stores on a daily basis and be followed around because people have this idea of you as a criminal, and it is therefore not seen as a problem.
You do not know what it’s like to be the only black kid in a class and feel like you don’t belong.
You do not know what it’s like to step into a class the first day of school and have to work your butt off to overturn stereotypes of being lazy/uneducated/less desirable in order to be treated like everyone else. You get to walk into your AP classes and people will automatically assume you’re smart.
You do not know what it’s like to live in a world where a black college grad has the same chances of getting a job as a white high school dropout.
You do not know what it’s like to meet new people and hope and pray that they’re okay with black people.
You do not know what it’s like to hear people casually throw around a slur that was used to dehumanize your past family with no knowledge of the pain it causes. You do not know what it’s like to have to hide that pain so you won’t be accused of pulling the “race card.”
You do not know what it’s like to have to change your name because your black sounding name will make it harder for you to get a job.
You do not know what it’s like to rarely see members of your own race achieving amazing things despite the odds, and then wondering if it is possible at all for you.
Just because we share an income bracket doesn’t mean our experiences will be the same. You can be the richest of the rich and still face a good number of these problems. It doesn’t mean that after all this college business I won’t face discrimination you can bypass when trying to find a job. When you’re living in a world where you have to deal with all this ^^^^ crap, it’s darn hard to be able to be viewed as “high-achieving.” When I see all my other black friends who work their tails off fall by the wayside, I know that I have to work twice as hard to stay where I’m at. AA helps. No, it doesn’t solve racism or inequality or discrimination, but it gives us a better chance of being able to compete out in the real world.
Okay, that’s all.
Ok, so let’s not freak out at AA decisions for now (noted) while we work to prepare the next generations to act in such a way that it is unnecessary.
Youz guys are going to get this thread shut down. Keep the discussion relevant to college admissions, or else move your opposing rants elsewhere.
Why don’t we “resume” the original topic?
My frustration during college app period was when the admission office gave me WRONG information about test reporting. It turns out there are some student interns who know nothing but what’s written on the website and standard rules. They are NOT to be trusted. One time, there was one guy at Yale conference who told me I MUST submit TOEFL even if I had SAT scores, EVEN THOUGH THE COLLEGE WEBSITE SAID TOEFL CAN BE WAIVED.