@dsi411 a holistic admission process should not look into what race or legacy the people have because those things are not something that demonstrates anything done by the applicant and only things done by those before them. Grades and test scores are not the only things looked at. There is a reason there is a section for ECs and other awards. If the applicant actually does things with their life other than study then that can be elucidated from this section. Race only would matter for the admission process if someone is considered as facing the stereotypical things associated with that race, regardless of their actual situation. Legacy just means that the parents of the person did good things with THEIR lives. There are plenty of rich white kids who are very stupid but have parents that got rich because they were well educated. Kids of educated parents are more likely to be successful academically but if this is the case then their academic record will demonstrate this while legacy only demonstrates what their parents/ancestors accomplished. Race and legacy only play on stereotypes and not on the actual qualifications of an individual which can be demonstrated many ways.
Giving advantages to legacy helps the college with its donors. A Harvard alumni is more likely to donate if it means his son/daughter will get in Harvard (given that they are a somewhat competitive applicant). Colleges are a business and they need private funding to survive.
Legacy/Affirmative Action/Recruited Athletes only takes up so many spots. There are plenty of other spots for non hooked applicants. If you’re a good enough fit for top schools, you’ll get in regardless if you’re hooked or not. There was that one Indian girl who got into all 8 Ivies, unhooked, so it’s definitely possible for an Asian/Non-Athlete/Non-Legacy to be successful in college admissions.
Whatisyourquest: I’m not convinced that you are answering honestly, but I’ll go ahead and answer your Q anyway: “let’s also do away with AA when the applicant’s parents are not socioeconomically challenged. This filter should always be applied for AA admits. Can we agree on that?” I have mixed feelings here. Even in my sons’ school (in an economically advantaged area), there is still quite a bit of segregation IN THE CLASSROOM between whites and Hispanics. I’m sure the explanation for this is bigger than just “racism”. Nevertheless, the Hispanic kids in our district seem to be getting a much poorer start than whites and Asians in general here. Why is that?? Until we can figure out the reasons for such disparites, I would not be so quick to dismantle the (flawed) system we currently have. On the other hand, the resentment AffAction engenders leads me, like others have expressed here, to encourage my kids to apply to schools where that policy doesn’t exist, in the hope that they will not be assumed to have been undeservingly admitted.
Legacy is not a shoo in. What often happens is that, through the family connection, the applicant understands that college better. In a world where too many focus on college ranking by the media, legacy kids can often show their match well. And those who can’t or don’t meet adcoms’ other expectations, don’t have any advantage. Also, in any year, the number of admits whose parents gave mega bucks tends to be small.
Same for URMs and low SES. They aren’t admitted knee-jerk. So many have impressives that matter to the colleges. Don’t assume this is all about historical issues. It’s about the individual kid.
I was being honest, Zekesima. Thank you for your thoughtful, reasoned reply.
I think that schools should not be ranked, and titles like ‘Ivy League’ should be removed. I think that puts a lot of unnecessary stress on applicants
Applicants put the stress on themselves. They could learn to find internal satisfaction rather than choosing to rank themselves by the label on their clothes or the prestigiosity of the college, etc., etc.
First, the Ivy League is an athletic conference.
In life near everything is ranked. Companies have hierarchies, football teams have hierarchies, you’re ranked in school, etc.
Prestige is an attractive quality and some places will always be thought of as higher than others. Arguing that things like ranks shouldn’t exist only feeds into the (false) claims from adults these days arguing that all kids are soft. If kids obsess over rankings and value themselves based on those ranks then the issue is not the idea of rankings but the way those kids think.
I really hate how the SATs and ACTs are such a huge part of the admissions decision. Theres way more to your ability to succeed in life and have value to a college other than a stupid SAT score. Wow you know all that geometry and calculus? Well amazing. Most people don’t need to use that in their day to day lives and only a few need it for their actual careers. I have great entrepreneurial skills and I’m good at science, and history.
Honestly, if they’re using AA - helping African-Americans/Latinos get accepted - because they tend to be socioeconomically dis-advantaged… Why not just do away with the correlation mess (because there are very commonly poor white people and rich, advantaged black people, even if they aren’t the ‘norm’) and just do AA based on family income! It’s not that hard. If you’re letting in people because their race tends to be poorer, instead, just let in the poorer students. And I think it makes sense to do that because the poorer kids are likely notto have access to opportunities so they should get a leg up - not the rich, advantaged kid just because he’s black.
@Zekesima @whatisyourquest @therockmorten
@Anonymoose3 because though we “tend” to be economically disadvantaged, we are at a concrete racial disadvantage. There are studies documenting that teachers treat black students differently (in terms of how they teach them, grade them, and in how they discipline them) than other students. People with black names find it harder to find jobs. Blacks are less likely to be given loans to start up businesses even when they have the same profile of whites. Juries are more likely to give harsher sentencing to black people. There’s the entire War on Drugs that is done based on racial profiling, there are stop and frisk laws in New York as well. Police violence. There’s also something called Racial Empathy Gaps that show that people view black people of literally experiencing less pain than white people. Beyond that, the after American has a friend group where less than 10% of the people they interact with are minorities, so colleges want to attract minority students. Believe it or not the average advantaged kid does deal with racism just because he’s “black”, because racism still exists. Yes it is socioeconomic, but you’re only keying in on the economic part. And while fighting discrimination with discrimination isn’t best, it is the current policy and there are already signs of being phased out. And considering the small amount of blacks on elite campuses to begin with, it’s not very impactful.
Anyway, there is a stickied thread called “Race in College Admissions” that can discuss this issue if you need to discuss it further. And I have access to the studies on this stuff if you want to read up on it.
Anyway I know people don’t like the weight that standardized tests have in admissions, but in my opinion it’s one of the few measures we have that literally compares all students to each other, even if what exactly it measures can be called into question.
I actually disagree with this. At most schools, SAT/ACT scores are not a huge part of the decision, but instead act as a gateway. If your scores are sufficiently high, your app will probably receive more serious consideration. You can get into a great college without a great SAT score. As has been mentioned on MIT admissions, you get in off the accomplishments and activities that you pursued in high school, and it just so happens that the people that have made the most out of their high school life usually also have high standardized testing scores.
You’re right, it sounds really stupid to say “let’s accept this kid because he has a 2170 on the SAT and this other kid only has a 2100.” It is stupid and admissions doesn’t work that way.
@TheAtlantic OK thanks for the reply…
Holistic Admissions.
It’s a load of crap. Started out as Harvard speak for “too many Jews”, now it’s everybody speak for “Too many Asians”. Thanks to holistic admissions, our top high school kids are running themselves ragged trying to be perfect in every way, not just excelling academically with 4.0/4000, 12 AP 5s, but now they also have to start a company or write an app that gets published, build mud huts for orphans in Africa, tutor inner city kids, be varsity team captain in football-basketball-lacrosse or Olympic athlete, big city youth orchestra 1st chair, Intel science winner, Math/Science Olympiad winner, debate team captain, Model UN president, class president, get a summer job to show humility, be teachers’ pet for good rec’s, and still be gorgeous, fashionable and most popular in school. Meanwhile, there are only 24 hours in a day!!
All because Harvard doesn’t want to drown in a sea of Asians!
Oh, brother. Something or other happened 70 or so years ago, so…
If a kid doesn’t want to stretch, he doesn’t have to. He can view life realistically (for him) and adjust accordingly.
To listen to some, the presence of high achieving hs kids- well, instead of it being proof kids can expand, some see it as proof life is misery. You really don’t think kids can handle it? Clearly, thousands are.
I agree with @lookingforward. Cry me a river, already. 85% of US colleges don’t use holistic admissions. But you’re the one who wants the “prestige” of a Harvard but you hate its admissions policy. Can’t have your cake and eat it too. Dial 911 for the whaaambulance.
Re post #329 - Income itself is a deeply flawed basis for determining advantages. Prep-school teachers, musicians, artists, et al, might have low incomes, but their children are likely to have extensive academic advantages (especially teachers’ kids).
Question : Do you see less of stereotyping by your kids/yourself? I ask because I have seen firsthand (low volume admittedly since I am only one person) but I have definitely seen that race is not a factor in my child’s or friend’s discussion , friendships or activities. I wonder if you are seeing more of this too? This is akin to what President Obama said about gay marriage, he said (I paraphrase) - “Malia told me being gay is not something they discuss in their circle because it does not matter if they are gay or not”… I understand that where you live, who you associate with is a BIG part of these thoghts but I don’t live in rich neighborhood. yet I am seeing this… Do you?..I realize it is off topic but thought worth asking here since all kinds of biases are getting bashed here.
I hate having officials sitting in a room somewhere on the opposite side of the country judge me and my worth based on some numbers. I hate that their judgement matters to me. I hate how this judgement made me start having nervous breakdowns at age 13.
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Holistic Admissions.
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This.