What should I if i not have tax returns?

Paying for College
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<p>* Many schools require that students fill out the free lunch forms whether they are eligible for free/reduced lunch or not for just the reasons that James Jr. mentioned.*</p>

<p>Ha!</p>

<p>so what. Just because a school WANTS you to fill it out, it can’t require you to fill it out as a condition for attending the school. I guess some schools use language that scares parents into filling the forms out, but it can’t be a condition for attendance. Can’t. A school cannot require a family to divulge its financial situation as a condition for attendance. Just wouldn’t fly legally. Can you produce such a law? I doubt it. </p>

<p>I “get” that schools get more Title I funds if they have X percent free lunch kids so the schools act like the forms are mandatory to attend the school. The forms are not mandatory. There is no such federal or state law that says all students must fill out those forms in order to attend public K-12. </p>

<p>Anyway…my point has been…no country should be sending diplomats (especially high ranking ones) that earn so little that their kids qualify for free lunch. That’s just gross…and it has nothing to do with "hospitality.’ LOL this country is very “hospitable”…without handing out free lunches.</p>

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<p>You are absolutely right. The school cannot “make” you submit lunch forms as they are not required in order to attend school. </p>

<p>However, if your school population is less than 75% Title I students, the school can withhold services that are paid by Title I funding with you are not eligible for the service (not supplying lunch forms will make you ineligible). IF your school is over 75% the title I funding can be used for the entire school.</p>

<p>In addition, you could also can’t answer the question on the FAFSA, that asks if you receive Free/Reduced lunch on the FAFSA because you cannot receive the service if you do not fill out the form. Remember the form does not ask if you are eligible to receive, it asks, do you receive. (with the information soon being linked to the high school, it will soon be easy to verify if a student does indeed receive free lunch).</p>

<p>The most basic one being that if you are fee waiver eligible and you do not have a lunch form on file, you will not get SAT/ACT testing or College Board/SUNY/CUNY/NACAC college application fee waivers.</p>

<p>In some school districts, you must turn in a lunch form in order to attend PM school/credit recovery, tutoring, math reading/language arts enrichment programs that Title I funding pays for.</p>

<p>At the end of the day, free/reduced lunch and all of the entitlements that come with its eligibility for Title I funding are open to all students who qualify, regardless of immigration/citizenship status.</p>

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<p>Free lunch is a basic form of courtesy. If you invite someone to your house do you make him pay for lunch? Even if he can afford the lunch?</p>

<p>Diplomats receive many other benefits from the host country in which they are based. If, say, a Canadian diplomat living in the US kills a US citizen, whether by purpose or by accident, the US authorities cannot pass a verdict on him. Instead what will happen is that the US authorities will extradite him to Canada, where the Canadian courts will supervise his trial, though some jury members of that trial could be American, depending on the procedure (which may vary by country). Of course this would immediately result in poorer diplomatic relations between the two countries. </p>

<p>Diplomats can also visit receptions held by diplomatic organizations. The receptions are usually social events for diplomats representing all countries in a given country. In the receptions, diplomats can usually taste various types of food (from different countries), listen to different music and discuss important issues with other diplomats on casual terms. No diplomat is forced to pay anything here, even if the country in which the event is based is paying all the expenses. Again, it is courtesy. The UN holds many of these receptions every year, I am not sure how many. There are EU receptions held in New York, there are OPEC receptions held in New York, OIC receptions, SAARC receptions, SEATO receptions, NATO receptions, general receptions, all kinds of receptions take place and the US government will usually pay most of the expenses for these, simply as its act of courtesy.</p>

<p>When Japan opened up foreign trade in 1865, it received US and Chinese diplomats, and almost reimbursed the entire living costs of some of the ambassadors that those countries sent. The benefit that a country gains from providing for its foreign diplomats heavily outweighs the costs. Like I said, the only case in which this may be a false statement is if they are at war.</p>

<p>You might become jealous of the benefits diplomats receive, but assure yourself in the knowledge that

  1. diplomats make a rather low income, which explains my situation completely. They receive various facilities (of which not having to file tax returns is one), but the main real disposable income is extremely scant.
  2. becoming a diplomat is not easy. A civil service exam needs to be passed, and these are competitive in almost any country. It makes sense that they are competitive, if you consider the supply and demand of the office of a diplomat.</p>

<p>I’m done posting here. You are posting out of frenzy rather than reason. Any more arguments you present will just not be sufficient for overturning my conscience.</p>

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<p>You are absolutely right. The school cannot “make” you submit lunch forms as they are not required in order to attend school.</p>

<p>Thank you. So the OP’s claim that he “had” to fill the forms out is just not true. </p>

<p>This country could never require a family to disclose its income as a condition for enrollment in public K-12 without some seriously major changes to how the US operates. </p>

<p>Frankly, I would LOVE for a school to claim that you had to submit that form upon enrollment (or the beginning of each year). That would be a school to have fun with watching it spin its wheels trying to come up with untruths as to why the forms “had” to be submitted or else the child couldn’t go to school.</p>

<p>*Free lunch is a basic form of courtesy. If you invite someone to your house do you make him pay for lunch? Even if he can afford the lunch?</p>

<p>*</p>

<p>What the heck. If your logic were true, then why stop at lunch? The country would be expected to provide breakfast, lunch and dinner to you. Sorry, that doesn’t pass the logic test.</p>

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<p>Yes, if I wanted, I would be eligible for OPA food stamps that could qualify me for free or reduced-price breakfast/dinner.</p>

<p>But the opportunity cost of doing so outweighs the argument in favor of this, which is I way I just stop at free lunch.</p>

<p>Some diplomats take advantage of all sorts of things. Some will run their credit cards dry before leaving the country. Some will go on a rampage of using bouncy checks before leaving the country. The only one who can punish them is their home government.</p>

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<p>Free lunch is not a basic form of courtesy. It is an entitlement that must be provided to all students who are qualified and submits a lunch form to their school. IF your school has a breakfast program (most schools do), you are eligible for breakfast and after school meal if your school participates in the program.</p>

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<p>M2ck,</p>

<p>You may not like it that there are relatively poorer countries that send dependents to the US along with the assigned diplomatic staff member, but it as been the hard-learned experience of that sector that the workers perform their jobs better when they are not concerned about absent family members or maintaining long-distance relationships.</p>

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<p>Yes that is correct. I meant that it is a basic form of courtesy because diplomats would receive it if they filled out the forms, even if they lied on their lunch forms about their income. It is impossible for the authorities to “check” their income, since they do not file tax returns. But that would be dishonest.</p>

<p>Of course if the diplomat doesn’t make much money, then that argument is unnecessary, but in any case, all diplomats can eventually avoid paying for free lunch in the US.</p>

<p>But the analogy remains intact. If you invite someone to your house, do you have them pay for lunch? It’s really the same thing happening with diplomats. The only difference is that with diplomats, you have them fill out a form. The form will work in such a way that wealthy diplomats will be allowed free lunch only if they can lie their way through. Poor diplomats will have no problems. So you will price discriminate accordingly. I am against this personally. But I do not blame the US government for it, since they are going through a hard time. If the US govt were in an economic boom right now, then they might consider paying much more for diplomats. It depends on the circumstances on what they believe foreigners are entitled to, just as it is with US universities shelling out financial aid for int’l students.</p>

<p>The argument boils down to the definitions of “basic” and “courtesy” if they are to prove my statement incorrect. Since definitions can be subjective, I will not quibble over them. But the concept of my argument should make sense.</p>

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<p>I think that you need to quit while you are ahead as you are climbing a slippery slope.</p>

<p>In answer to your question:</p>

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<p>Yes, if the family is not qualified for free lunch and they want to eat lunch, then they must pay for lunch.</p>

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<p>The school can verify income in a number of ways:
This proof must include copies of your Federal and State Income Tax Returns for the year, pay stubs, and verification of any other income that you may list. The school may ask you at any time during the school year to re-verify your eligibility. You will be notified, in writing, if you have been selected for Re-verification. School officials may ask you again to send papers showing that your child should receive free or reduce price meals.</p>

<p>Now if your school is not doing it’s due diligence and verifying the veracity of the applications, then that is a different issue and they could be out of compliance.</p>

<p>The getting caught lying could be far worse and you would not be eligible for anything. It would be nothing for the GC to include in their recommendation, that while you are a child of a doplomat, they have reason to believe that you are less than truthful about your finances and use the free lunch application as an example. Actually, they would be obligated to report it, because it constitutes willful misrepresentation.</p>

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<p>So are you telling me that when you invite someone to your house, you actually have them fill out a form? My point was about courtesy and that diplomats usually have been entitled to forms of courtesy in the past. It is the same as offering your seat at the bus to an elderly person, except in this case there are ulterior motives which make it beneficial for a host country to make provisions for its foreign diplomats. I used the analogy of inviting someone and giving free lunch, since that seemed more acceptable, but I did not think there were people who would actually have their guests fill out forms. If you actually had your guests fill out lunch forms, then I don’t know what to say… </p>

<p>And no authority can “check” the income figures of a diplomat unless they forced the information either out of banks or out of the home country’s ministry of foreign affairs. Again, this would be discourteous to diplomats, and although discourtesy by diplomats themselves is also prevalent, the reverse could have disastrous consequences for the host countries in the form of international relations.</p>

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<p>The problem with your analogy is that you are not in someone’s home. Even if you come to my home, you must respect the rules that I set forth in my home. If you cannot respect my home, I would ask you to leave.</p>

<p>However, you are a guest attending a school that is paid for by federal, state and local tax dollars. These schools have rules and regulations, if you do not want to follow them, you are not obligated to receive the services that they provide.</p>

<p>If the school has rules and you don’t comply with the rules, you do not get the service. It has nothing to do with courtesy (we can very politely tell you that you do not meet the qualifications). There will be no disastrous consequences (I work at a school where we have diplomat children attending and we ask for the same information that we ask from anyone else). Actually, it would be discriminatory not to ask them for the information, if we are requesting it from everyone else.</p>

<p>But back to your original question, as an international student you will have to turn in certified documents (from banks and employers) attesting you your financial situation as required by the school in question. If you don’t turn in the paperwork, you will not receive any aid.</p>

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<p>I thank you for your response to my original question.</p>

<p>I am in someone’s home in the sense that I am in a country in which I have been received as a “guest”. I am a guest in the sense that I receive various benefits like diplomatic immunity and state residency. Free lunch is an added component of that, depending on procedure. I guess in the US, the benefit depends on the diplomat’s income (price discrimination), but in the UK, many schools offer free lunch to children of diplomats attending their schools (as well as to the domestic students who have demonstrated need). The degree to which I am entitled to such benefits depends, as I repeatedly mentioned, on the relations between the countries, the necessity to maintain those relations and on the actual magnitude of the benefit. Free lunch for a diplomat is nothing compared to the amount the US govt spends on bailing out its inefficient banks.</p>

<p>You’re correct in saying that if I were at someone’s home, I would have to follow the rules. The rules of course could be different for the guest than what they would be for the domestic residents of that house. The guests will usually be treated a little better. This is standard courtesy. If you sitting with your son/daughter and a guest, you might ask your own child “Why don’t you give [guest] something to eat?” The guest may respond with his own courtesy and decline prompt offers, but that is up to the guest’s discretion. And if did not respond with his own courtesy, I doubt the host would make him leave. Especially if the guest and the host had some important business there, which is often the case with diplomats.</p>

<p>Nevertheless my original arguments are unaffected, since I follow the rules anyway. So now this is becoming like a red herring argument.</p>

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<p>Keep in mind that the world is a small place. I do believe that you may be a bit disingenuous in the telling of your story. On your chances thread, you state that your family has an income of 100-150k</p>

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<p>So either you have lied on your lunch application or you have lied on your chance posting. Either way, you have demonstrated that you can be and your are less than truthful when the situation benefits you. </p>

<p>If you have lied on your lunch application, then your high school has every right to suspend you for misrepresentation (you have stolen services which you were not entitled to), which goes against the NYC HS disciplinary code and report to the colleges that you were subject to disciplinary based on the lies that you told to get free lunch (if you attended my school, you would be reported, but we would ask for proof of income just like we ask it from any other student). You have now given me reason to make sure that everyone on my caseload is in compliance (For all you know one of the parents here could be working at your school or at least knows the administration there).</p>

<p>Since most schools are not need blind to international applicants, feigning poverty will not net you anything since your income and assets will be used for the basis of admissions. Keep in mind that when you apply to colleges with a fee waiver, and you submit your financials, if everything does not match up you could have trouble on your hands (the school could very quietly deny you admissions) . Regardless of your status, the school does not have to give a reason as to why it denied waitlisted you.</p>

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<p>on 9/30 you wrote:</p>

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<p>on 4/11/11 you wrote:</p>

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<p>Again, you have demonstrated that you have problems telling the truth.</p>

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<p>No that post is not entirely correct. It was made a long time ago, when I assumed that I should include the amount that is paid on my utility bills and rent, which would make it incorrect since my own country’s government, not my parents, pay those bills. The real disposable income would not include those figures, since my parents do not choose how to spend that income. The amount is going directly from my own country’s government to the landlords, and I did not know this back then, which is why the income figures look so inflated.</p>

<p>Mind you I tried to be as pessimistic as possible with that post, so that I could get a more pessimistic evaluation of my chances of getting into a particular school, so that I could account for the worst. I would have been annoyed by an optimistic evaluation more than a pessimistic evaluation, assuming that a perfect evaluation of my own income figures and academic stats is not feasible.</p>

<p>It is interesting that you would assume that I lied/exaggerated on my own lunch forms, rather than on that post. Both are equally like, if not the latter being the more so. </p>

<p>You are right in saying that most schools are not need blind to int’ls. I myself, being an int’l, would have to take their statement to heart, so it is unlikely I did not already know that. </p>

<p>I am not entirely sure whether I can be suspended for lying on my lunch forms. It would not matter, since my parents are responsible for that and not me. I also know that my parents would have no need to do that, since their real disposable income is in the field that qualifies them for such benefits.</p>

<p>While the arguments of this thread are all well intended, they are unlikely to produce anything positive. It is hypocrisy against the devil, as Othello might remark. </p>

<p>Also, my actual SAT scores are lower than those on that post. That post was after I took the exam, but before I received the results. It shouldn’t matter whether they represent the truth or not. The purpose of that post was to receive an evaluation of my chances if I received (which was quite possible at that time) those scores. It makes sense because my estimate was +60 from the experimental result. Nowhere does it say on that post that those were my ACTUAL scores. Hell I’m not even applying to that school now so that post is 99% irrelevant. The rest of the stats follow a similar pattern. For instance, I take more AP classes this year than I had anticipated in that post. My AP scores were higher in some, less in others. </p>

<p>Please argue more deductively rather than inductively.</p>

<p>Good day to you all. If you have any concerns, please PM them to me directly, and I believe further posting of this kind is unnecessary on this forum.</p>

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<p>No, what I wrote was that either you lied in the post or you lied on your form. I merely told you what would happen if you lied on the form. It was you who are drawing this conclusion (thou does protest too much) and started backpeddling.</p>

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<p>Look up the NYC DOE Disciplinary code</p>

<p>Level 2 infraction
B16 Lying to, giving false information to, and/or misleading school personnel</p>

<p>principals suspension 1-5 days
Reprimand by appropriate supervisor
(e.g., assistant principal, principal)
D. Parent conference
E. In-school disciplinary action</p>

<p>The information on the lunch form is not based on disposable income. It is based on earned income. If your parents put down their disposable rather than earned income, they misrepresented their financial information.</p>

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<p>I am on my phone so difficult to look this up myself -however a question for those FAFSA experts. If as OP says, that living expenses are not paid by his parents but by his parents employer/government, is that money then noted on FAFSA as other living stipends would be?</p>

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<p>Yes as I mentioned earlier, the rent is paid directly by the government, which I did not know in April. Therefore it is not, and should not be counted in income. </p>

<p>Hmm do you know if those disciplinary codes apply to parents as well as to students? Because the parents are the ones who fill the forms out.</p>

<p>It would be interesting if that were the case. It would mean that students have an inherent responsibility to make sure that their parents are filling out everything correctly. I would think that’s a little too much accounting knowledge expected from middle and high schoolers.</p>

<p>By the way, was that from a Shakespeare play? If so, which one?? Just curious.</p>

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<p>I work for the NYC doe as an administrator, so it part of my job to know the regulations. In addition, I just sent an e-mail to my network leader requesting that we remain in compliance.</p>

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<p>As an 18 year old, you are old enough to know right from wrong and if your parents are defrauding the system, so yes you would be responsible.</p>

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<p>If you file taxes $ money received for
Room & board ( such as if you were a RA) I believe is taxable.
I also believe that living stipends (whether paid directly
Or not) as for a minister or in Americorps, are also taxable.
In any case monies paid on your families behalf will need to be noted elsewhere.</p>