<p>“overcome more” is an incredibly subjective term.</p>
<p>Earlier in this thread it was cited that the wealthiest urms score lower than the poorest white an asian students.</p>
<p>Can you bring up that citation again? I didn’t read the entire thread, only skimmed, so I must have missed it. I agree that there is a disparity, but I doubt it falls to the extremes that you cite. I would be very interested in seeing the data to support that assertion.</p>
<p>Economic-only AA is said to disproportionately benefit Asians because of the high value of education ingrained in many Asian cultures, across all economic levels.</p>
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<p>I just learned something. So what you are saying about the issue of the upward pointing caret symbols ( ^^^ ) is that each one means, “up one post,” so that three mean “up three posts?” That’s cool to know, and is certainly a convention I haven’t noticed at all before, and thus have violated. </p>
<p>In response to the request for data on SAT test scores stratified BOTH by ethnic group and by income, I’ll point to the only link I know of. </p>
<p>[Image:1995-SAT-Education2.png</a> - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1995-SAT-Education2.png]Image:1995-SAT-Education2.png”>File:1995-SAT-Education2.png - Wikipedia) </p>
![http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1995-SAT-Education2.png]Image:1995-SAT-Education2.png](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1995-SAT-Education2.png%5DImage:1995-SAT-Education2.png){kind=link}
<p>[Image:1995-SAT-Income2.png</a> - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1995-SAT-Income2.png]Image:1995-SAT-Income2.png”>File:1995-SAT-Income2.png - Wikipedia) </p>
![http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1995-SAT-Income2.png]Image:1995-SAT-Income2.png](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1995-SAT-Income2.png%5DImage:1995-SAT-Income2.png){kind=link}
<p>I have read about the same issue in a book published by a major publishing company, so I think these are accurate data. College Board has not published data in this form in any other year that I am aware of, because the one time these data were published by College Board, the publication evoked a lot of controversy. As usual, a correlational relationship like this establishes nothing about causation or about whether the relationship is long-lasting. </p>
<p>My personal sense of the evidence is that anyone of any ethnic group can get a high score on the SAT, but only by being an avid reader of a variety of English-language materials. </p>
<p>More recent publications from the College Board </p>
<p><a href=“http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/Total_Group_Report.pdf[/url]”>http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/Total_Group_Report.pdf</a> </p>
<p><a href=“http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/Differential_Validity_and_Prediction_of_the_SAT.pdf[/url]”>http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/Differential_Validity_and_Prediction_of_the_SAT.pdf</a> </p>
<p>and ACT </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.act.org/news/data/08/pdf/two.pdf[/url]”>http://www.act.org/news/data/08/pdf/two.pdf</a> </p>
<p>don’t stratify the data in the same way, but suggest one strong correlate with high SAT or ACT scores that plausibly is causative is taking tough, intellectually challenging courses in high school. Challenge yourself in high school, and you’ll be more ready for college. Again, I think this would work, at the individual level, for any young person of any ethnicity. At the level of group comparisons, there certainly are variations in opportunity to pursue challenging high school curricula–they are not offered in many places in the United States.</p>
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<p>What if two “foreign blacks” had a baby born in America, would that change anything?
Do you think that affirmative action was “meant” to benefit first-generation Americans?</p>
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<p>And is the further claim that there is some broad societal harm from that? On what evidence is such a claim made, if it is?</p>
<p>I haven’t heard that claim. I wish all cultures had Asians’ respect for education.</p>
<p>Citation that test score gap supersedes economics: </p>
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<p>[The</a> Widening Racial Scoring Gap on the SAT College Admissions Test](<a href=“http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html]The”>The Widening Racial Scoring Gap on the SAT College Admissions Test)</p>
<p>^ Did you just cite facts that aren’t complimentary to minorities? OMG POLITICAL INCORRECTNESS!</p>
<p>Thanks, Tyler09, for the follow-up citation to the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education about test score gap issues.</p>
<p>Thank you tokenadult and Tyler09 for bringing up the citations. That’s very useful to know.</p>
<p>I wonder what actual number of Asian-Americans and whites fall into the first-generation and low-income categories, compared to the number of blacks and <a href=“mailto:Latin@s”>Latin@s</a>. And as tokenadult pointed out, what is so wrong with disproportionately benefiting Asians (or whites, or any other group)? If they are low-income and/or first-generation, I think it is safe to say that they have been disadvantaged in today’s society (regardless of past society and actions/events therein). AA should help the disadvantaged; I do not believe that its primary purpose is to equalize the racial gap (though I may be mistaken, in which case socioeconomic AA will have to be called by a different name).</p>
<p>
[The</a> Widening Racial Scoring Gap on the SAT College Admissions Test](<a href=“http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html]The”>The Widening Racial Scoring Gap on the SAT College Admissions Test)</p>
<p>There is no problem with anything benefitting asian students. I think what the poster was trying to say is that instituting a program with the intention of aiding urm students, that actually only benefits asian students, makes no sense. </p>
<p>It’s like, to be cliche, giving a band-aid to someone with pneumonia (that’s not how the cliche goes at all :()</p>
<p>I don’t believe in AA that benefits URMs specifically, but rather the disadvantaged. So yes, I agree with you–socioeconomic AA will not benefit URMs as much as racial AA. However, it certainly will not exclude low-income URMs either. Different purposes.</p>
<p>Many schools want all kinds of diversity, for diversity’s sake. Economic diversity is easy for schools to attain; there are plenty of qualified applicants at all income levels. Sufficient cultural and racial diversity is more of a problem; there are still not enough black applicants to meet the perceived need.</p>
<p>I’m very interested in what people think about the disparity amongst different racial groups at the same economic level.</p>
<p>From tokenadult: [Image:1995-SAT-Education2.png</a> - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1995-SAT-Education2.png]Image:1995-SAT-Education2.png”>File:1995-SAT-Education2.png - Wikipedia)</p>
<p>[Image:1995-SAT-Income2.png</a> - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1995-SAT-Income2.png]Image:1995-SAT-Income2.png”>File:1995-SAT-Income2.png - Wikipedia)</p>
<p>Whats the reasoning behind it? How come poor whites, who attend horrible rural schools with non-educated, blue-collar parents who give no academic encouragement, score better than upper class blacks who attend suburban schools and have highly educated parents? Controlling for income is essentially equivalent to controlling for home environment and school quality, especially when the poorest income level is compared to the highest.</p>
<p>^Controlling income controls those factors to an extent. </p>
<p>It is important to consider who exactly black upper-class is. Many are “new money”, first generation wealthy families who don’t “know how” to confer the benefits of being wealthy to their children. I don’t think this even explains a significant amount of this disparity beyond the upper class, but I think it is critical to think of all explanations when you devise a solution.</p>
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<p>OK but how do you then explain the disparity amongst the children of those who have degrees of higher education? One couldn’t even fathom these individuals being ignorant of the academic process.</p>
<p>I think it’s a good try, but if you can make it to a higher class or obtain a higher degree, then the ability to pass that on (at least culturally) is implicit.</p>
<p>The differences at the group level are puzzling, to say the least, and have been the subject of more than one full-length book. </p>
<p>[Amazon.com:</a> The Black-White Test Score Gap: Christopher Jencks, Meredith Phillips: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Black-White-Test-Score-Gap/dp/0815746105/]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/Black-White-Test-Score-Gap/dp/0815746105/) </p>
<p>[Amazon.com:</a> No Excuses: Closing the Racial Gap in Learning: Abigail Thernstrom, Stephan Thernstrom: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/No-Excuses-Closing-Racial-Learning/dp/074326522X/]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/No-Excuses-Closing-Racial-Learning/dp/074326522X/) </p>
<p>[Amazon.com:</a> The Shape of the River: William G. Bowen, Derek Bok, Glenn C. Loury: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Shape-River-William-G-Bowen/dp/0691050198/]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/Shape-River-William-G-Bowen/dp/0691050198/) </p>
<p>[Amazon.com:</a> Unequal Childhoods: Class, Race, and Family Life: Annette Lareau: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Unequal-Childhoods-Class-Race-Family/dp/0520239504/]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/Unequal-Childhoods-Class-Race-Family/dp/0520239504/) </p>
<p>[Amazon.com:</a> Inequality at the Starting Gate: Social Background Differences in Achievement as Children Begin School: Valerie E. Lee, David T. Burkam: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Inequality-Starting-Gate-Differences-Achievement/dp/1932066020/]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/Inequality-Starting-Gate-Differences-Achievement/dp/1932066020/) </p>
<p>[Amazon.com:</a> The Geography Of Opportunity: Race And Housing Choice In Metropolitan America (James A. Johnson Metro Series): William Julius Wilson (Foreword) Xavier De Souza Briggs (Editor), William Julius Wilson, Xavier De Souza Briggs: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Geography-Opportunity-Housing-Metropolitan-America/dp/0815708734/]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/Geography-Opportunity-Housing-Metropolitan-America/dp/0815708734/) </p>
<p>[Amazon.com:</a> Class And Schools: Using Social, Economic, And Educational Reform To Close The Black-white Achievement Gap: Richard Rothstein: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Class-Schools-Educational-Black-white-Achievement/dp/0807745561/]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/Class-Schools-Educational-Black-white-Achievement/dp/0807745561/) </p>
<p>Authors don’t agree about the main pattern of causation for this phenomenon, which may not have one main pattern of causation. </p>
<p>But at the individual level, there are surely young people of every which background who either fail to meet expectations or rise above expectations in becoming ready for college. Probably the most fruitful line of inquiry is to figure out how young people whose families would appear to have few resources for college preparation manage to become prepared to go on to college.</p>
<p>The underlying fallacy is that college admissions is base solely or primarily on merit, as demonstrated by test scores and grades. Private colleges are building a community; some groups routinely get a boost - - boys, urms, legacies, development admits and athletes (in high-profile sports). Depending on what the college “needs,” the oboe player (or bassonist), the kid into technical theatre or the athlete playing a lesser sport may also get a boost. </p>
<p>There are also groups for whom admission is an uphill battle, including girls, those form the tir-state area and Asian students.</p>
<p>^ Of course, private colleges can do whatever they want. But public institutions are (or should be) a different matter.</p>