<p>Setting aside the inherent bias of the court brief–which was an excellent read, thank you–I’d like to point out one assumption left unaddressed: whether a university’s goal of “distinctly racial diversity” is discriminatory (especially for public institutions). It is certainly a point to be argued, though I will not make the argument myself as I don’t hold a firm position on the matter.</p>
<p>I happened to be reading Richard Dawkins’s book The Ancestor’s Tale </p>
<p>[Amazon.com:</a> The Ancestor’s Tale: A Pilgrimage to the Dawn of Evolution: Richard Dawkins: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Ancestors-Tale-Pilgrimage-Dawn-Evolution/dp/0618005838/]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/Ancestors-Tale-Pilgrimage-Dawn-Evolution/dp/0618005838/) </p>
<p>over the weekend, and in it I found a section, “The Grasshopper’s Tale,” with an extensive discussion of scientific controversy about “race,” and this expression of opinion by Dawkins, who is never shy about expressing his opinion: </p>
<p>"I must at this point reiterate my strong objection to being asked to fill out in forms in which I have to tick a box labelling my ‘race’ or ‘ethnicity,’ and voice my strong support for Lewontin’s statement that racial classification can be actively destructive of social and human relations–especially when people use racial classification as a way of treating people differently, whether through negative or positive discrimination. To tie a racial label to somebody is informative in the sense that it tells you more than one thing about them. It might reduce your uncertainty about the colour of their hair, the colour of their skin, the straightness of their hair, the shape of their eye, the shape of their nose and how tall they are. But there is no reason to suppose that it tells you anything about how well-qualified they are for a job. And even in the unlikely event that it did reduce your statistical uncertainty about their likely suitability for some particular job, it would STILL be wicked to use racial labels as a basis for discrimination when hiring somebody. Choose on the basis of ability, and if, having done so, you end up with an all-black sprinting team, so be it. You have not practiced racial discrimination in arriving at this conclusion. </p>
<p>“A great conductor, when auditioning instrumentalists for his orchestra, always had them perform behind a screen. They were told not to speak, and they even had to remove their shoes for fear the sound of high heels would betray the sex of the performer. Even if it were statistically the case that women tend to make better harpists, say, than men, this does not mean you should actively discriminate against men when you choose a harpist. Discriminating against individuals purely on the basis of the group to which they belong is , I am inclined to think, always evil. There is near-universal agreement today that the apartheid laws of South Africa were evil. Positive discrimination in favor of ‘minority’ students on American campuses can fairly, in my opinion, be attacked on the same grounds as apartheid. Both treat people as representatives of groups rather than as individuals in their own right. Positive discrimination is sometimes justified as redressing centuries of injustice. But how can it be just to pay back a single individual today for the wrongs done by long-dead members of a plural group to which he belongs?” </p>
<p>[The</a> Ancestor’s Tale: A Pilgrimage to … - Google Book Search](<a href=“The Ancestor's Tale: A Pilgrimage to the Dawn of Evolution - Richard Dawkins - Google Books”>The Ancestor's Tale: A Pilgrimage to the Dawn of Evolution - Richard Dawkins - Google Books)</p>
<p><a href=“%5Burl=http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1061367078-post417.html]#417[/url]”>quote</a>…Discriminating against individuals purely on the basis of the group to which they belong is , I am inclined to think, always evil. (Richard Dawkins)…
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The logical conclusion to evolutionary biologist Dawkins’ assertion is that discrmination in mate selection using social (not biological) mis-conceptions of ‘race’ and ‘ethnicity’ is also wrong. </p>
<p>Both proponents and opponents of Affirmative Action (AA) should look into their own hearts (and minds) and practice what they preach with regard to their personal (not public policy) philosophy. </p>
<p>For proponents, the question would be, “If AA is appropriate for our society, is it also appropriate for your future family?” </p>
<p>For opponents: “Does the advocacy of ‘race doesn’t matter’ extend to the formation of your future family?”</p>
<p>That’s an interesting response to Dawkins’s opinion. On my part, race doesn’t matter for me for anything, and one of the reasons I am glad that current federal law says that college applicants do not have to self-identify with a “race” is that I look forward to a post-racial society in America and worldwide.</p>
<p>
I cannot speak for anyone else, but personally: no, race does not matter in the formation of my future family. My parents would protest, I’m sure–being traditional Asian parents–but I’ve dated in and out of my race and I have no problem with it. Likewise if anyone in my extended family were to marry outside our race or ethnicity.</p>
<p>But in regards to college admissions, I will be self-identifying as Asian because I’m zero-generation American (Canadian, actually) and I consider my race/ethnicity/culture an integral part of my identity. Whether it hurts me or helps me, I’m not going to try to game the system and sacrifice a part of myself. But for the majority of American students who have assimilated, racial identity isn’t an important part of them and I wish that those people would refuse self-identification–if more people chose that option en masse, AA might fall by the wayside all on its own. One can hope.</p>
<p>Did I make a bad move by identifying?</p>
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</p>
<p>You decided what to do when you filled out your application, and I won’t second-guess you. There are at least three kinds of questions that come up in this thread: </p>
<p>a) What do the ethnic definitions mean about my situation [followed by a description of the questioner’s ethnic heritage]? I usually try to give those questions a simple answer, but sometimes they don’t have a simple answer, because the federally recognized ethnic categories are approximate. </p>
<p>b) What is the best social policy for responding to these questions? My personal opinion is that you and all readers of this thread are my fellow human beings, and all of us who are United States citizens or permanent residents are my compatriots, and we can agree to identify ourselves as just that: Americans. But I respect anyone’s right to disagree with my opinion. “You’re entitled to your own opinion, but you’re not entitled to your own facts,” as someone once said. </p>
<p>c) What is expedient to do in my individual case when applying? This is the hardest question to answer. Most colleges are intentionally vague about how differently, if at all, they treat applicants who self-identify with one ethnic group or another. What I have to say about this issue is what I say in the first post in this thread: “Don’t worry about it. Self-identify or not as you wish. Recognize that students from a variety of ethnic groups–including whatever group or groups you would identify with, if any–are admitted to each of your favorite colleges each year. On the other hand, admission to some colleges (e.g., Harvard) is just plain competitive, so lots of outstanding students self-identified with each ethnic group you can imagine (or not self-identified with any group) are not admitted each year. Do your best on your application, apply to a safety, and relax.” </p>
<p>So don’t worry about it. Good luck in your applications.</p>
<p>@ tokenadult:</p>
<p>Ahh Richard Dawkins once again proves that he is, in fact, God.</p>
<p>I have question, if colleges “say” they don`t count race into consideration, then how come they ask you for your race?</p>
<p>It information is also totally optional. If you don’t give the information it is just classified as race unknown.</p>
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</p>
<p>Colleges have to ask because that is federal law. The federal government requires all educational institutions to ask about student “race” or “ethnicity” according to the federally defined categories, whether or not the school itself cares about the issue, with the rationale that that might help the government track instances of invidious discrimination. I suppose you are younger than I am. I well remember a time in my own childhood when schools in many places in the United States were explicitly set up to be for students of one or another “race,” and not just in the states of the former Confederacy. It took a long process of federal legal cases in a variety of jurisdictions to establish the principle that schools do NOT have the discretion to bar persons of one race or another entirely, at least not if they receive any smidgen of federal funding (as almost all schools, from K-12 through graduate and professional schools, do). </p>
<p>Colleges are required by law to ask students about ethnicity. Students are NOT required to tell. (That’s the unknown information that is the main subject of this FAQ.) If you don’t want to let a college know what your ethnicity is (maybe you don’t think you have an ethnicity, but are one human being among many), the college can’t second-guess you. If you don’t tell, the college reports you to the federal government as “race/ethnicity unknown,” as sybbie719 has correctly said. </p>
<p>Some colleges appear to say that they don’t regard race at all as an admission factor (which is controlling state law for some state universities in some states). Other colleges appear to say that they consider race as one of several admission factors applied to applicants. It’s unclear how much this matters at any particular college. Most colleges admit the great majority of all of their applicants, including applicants who really aren’t college-ready, so this isn’t an issue, really, for most applicants to most colleges. By law, you are very welcome NOT to self-identify if that is your choice.</p>
<p>lol. im asian american. and i didn’t fill in any ANY ofthe race ID forms because I keep reading about how asians are less and less considered as minorities and often times put at disadvantage because of it. </p>
<p>due to stereotypes of smart asian kid study math no friends no life go crazy shoot people…</p>
<p>plus there is such a large penetration of asian kids in us schools since they are usually high score acheivers due to cultural educational emphasis on grades that I thikn colleges are finding it a bit disconcerting.</p>
<p>finally, my counselors say that colleges claim to be ‘race-blind’</p>
<p>but come onnnnn</p>
<p>so yeah.</p>
<p>then again, my surname and frequent mentions of understanding of asian culture is a pretty darn obvious giveaway.</p>
<p>Thanks for the reply, I just did it because I didn’t think it was a big deal.</p>
<p>^ For a particular applicant applying to a particular college, it may not be a very big deal. It’s certainly not something to worry about after applying (which, historically, is when many threads about this issue are started here on College Confidential). </p>
<p>Good luck in your applications.</p>
<p>Alright, so I have been thinking about this for a few days now and it has been bugging me, and I really cannot figure out the answer to this question: how can colleges tell that a URM on an application truly is a URM? I have heard that you only need to be 1/16th of a certain race to be considered that race for application purposes, so if there is that little connection needed to a certain underrepresented minority, how can colleges know who is telling the truth? Do they look at records or anything? It has really been bothering me lately, and I do not know why I even thought of it, but over the past few days I was trying to think of anyway that admissions could ever find out if someone is 1/16th (insert URM).</p>
<p>they can’t…</p>
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</p>
<p>How would anyone ever tell? Do you write about your experiences in a college application essay? Does one of your teachers mention your background in a letter of recommendation? Does your record of extracurricular activities include involvement with your ethnic group? </p>
<p>For sure, colleges can’t tell what category you might have checked if you check none at all, and that is always a legal option.</p>
<p>the check URM status throught social security background checks.</p>
<p>and…i know for HYP u need to be 1/8th to be considered URM which I think is ********…come on 1/8th??? </p>
<p>does that mean we are all african american since modern man came from africa???lol</p>
<p>At the beginning of this FAQ thread, [post</a> #2](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1061012008-post2.html]post”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1061012008-post2.html) goes a long way toward showing how arbitrary the definitions are. </p>
<p>It is correct that each college gets to set its own policies in this regard, within the scope of what’s legally permitted. A college might decide that just checking a box is meaningless for admission purposes, and want to hear from applicants about their relevant life experiences before deciding who really brings meaningful diversity to campus.</p>
<p>Do Asian Indian students (non International) have it much harder than the East Asian applicants? I always see all these great Indian students with amazing stats getting rejected from the Ivies and Stanford. I know being Asian overall isn’t a good minority (ORM) but are the Indian students more affected than the Chinese, Korean, Japanese, etc students?</p>