<p>You talk about not being included Mrs. Chocolate & then your just the one not to include others.</p>
<p>How is she a minority? Merely speaking another language does not make you a minority. Were you guys very poor or what? Most URMs get in with slightly lower scores because they were poor and their life probably did not have the opportunities of others. That is why the break is given. Being poor, like stated by someone earlier in thread, will give you an advantage.</p>
<p>Trust me, a black guy may get into Harvard with a 2300/2400 SAT, but he is not getting in with a 1900 one. Being a minority is a very small boost simply because most of these people do not come from wealthy or well off families. It is an unfair system, but life in itself is unfair, the system is not unjust like you claim.</p>
<p>LaVie,</p>
<p>your daughter is a QB finalist, first generation in this country, and french to boot (talk about diversity)…you really don’t need to worry that she’s not spanish…she’ll be getting some nice acceptance letters - patience…</p>
<p>Fair or unfair the top schools mine south florida for hispanic admittees. Moreover, it doesnt seem to matter that the hispanic population there is for the most part far more affluent and better educated than in other parts of the country. Many many affluent, advantaged spanish surnamed students are admitted out of south florida to fill “diversity” (urm) goals. Being hispanic is a huge advantage. There have been analyses performed as to the average SAT differential that being hispanic is worth and it is quite large. I dont have time to search for them and post them here. But feel free.</p>
<p>@tokenadult: Too bad. That would be an interesting move for a white African to make. I guess people do catch that kind of stuff… heh.</p>
<p>@Nam3less: What about those URMs who AREN’T poor, and have not had a hard life? When AA was first created, this was much rarer (and, besides, there were other issues at the time). </p>
<p>While I think AA was once very necessary and did a lot of good in this country, I think the time has come for it to end… or maybe undergo a drastic change.</p>
<p>well colleges have to be represented equally…</p>
<p>besides all the Asians and whites, saying AA is not fair, are just scared…
not because AA makes it unfair, but because the competition is tougher persay</p>
<p>Asians and whites still make up 75 percent of most colleges, so idk what the **** is up with saying AA is unfair…NO!! it is fair…a bit more competitive yes.</p>
<p>BUT OVERALL, I DO AGREE that socioeconomic factors affect all this…i am all for a socioeconomic affirmative action!!!</p>
<p>I’m still waiting for evidence that affirmative action based on race exists. There must be a rogue admissions officer from somewhere who can or has confirmed it.</p>
<p>75% of colleges consist of whites and asians because most of the U.S. population is white, and Asians are naturally smart and hard working. </p>
<p>Bigweight, all the asians and whites are not scared. They would just like to be treated equally in the admission process. There are studies, like mia brought up, that show significant gaps between minority applicants’ sat scores and white/asian sat scores. I do not have the time to go find them, but they are out there. Socioeconomic AA is one thing, but giving advantage to minorities solely because they are minorities seems to push America in the wrong direction.</p>
<p>MattsMomFL, try THE GATEKEEPERS or A IS FOR ADMISSION. (I’m not 100% sure that URMs are discussed, but I’ve definitely read about the phenomenon several times, and those are two of the books I remember including case studies.)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You can’t be serious. You’re honestly suggesting that “affirmative action based on race” does not exist?</p>
<p>First, did you forget what happened six years ago in Gratz v. Bollinger? Under Michigan’s undergraduate affirmative action system, students needed 150 points to be admitted, and Michigan’s admissions officers gave twenty points to any “under-represented” minority student regardless of socioeconomic background. Other preferences were given, but their value was no where near twenty points.</p>
<p>The Supreme Court ruled that Michigan’s undergraduate affirmative action program was un-Constitutional in a 6-3 decision. The keyword, however, was program. Michigan simply revised their system to be consistent with the Court’s ruling.</p>
<p>You may retort, “that was six years ago. They could’ve completely abandoned ‘affirmative action based on race’.”</p>
<p>Let’s use our reasoning abilities. In 2006, Michigan had a ballot measure that would outlaw racial preferences in the public sector. Many groups vociferously opposed this proposal, and few of them were as staunch in their opposition as The University System of Michigan.</p>
<p>I ask you, if Michigan did not practice “affirmative action based on race,” then why did they fight so hard to keep it?</p>
<p>Is affirmative action in effect a quota? Is AA unconstitutional? How does URM desirability differ from AA? Is it that URM desirability is not a quota? What am I missing? Do you believe QB is a popular program because it “disguises” URM status as socioeconomic AA (and, is this legal?) Would socioeconomic diversty even be termed AA?</p>
<p>I hope your questions don’t mean that you’re still in denial about the existence of “affirmative action based on race.”</p>
<p>I ant to be black, hispanic, or Native American!</p>
<p>I have a 2250 and if I were an URM I wuold be able to get into Harvard no problem!</p>
<p>Not fair!</p>
<p>geographic and legacy affirmative action make sense.</p>
<p>georaphic diversity provides people with different experiences about where they live, and giving legacies a helping hand in admissions helps the school generate funds to improve the edeucational experience of ALL people.</p>
<p>What does affirmative action based on race provide people with? Just a darker shade of skin to look at. THAT’S IT. Black, hispanic, white, Asain, Indian, etc. people are ALL the same except for their skin color. </p>
<p>It is ridiculous to discriminate against whites and Asians; just because they aren’t black or hispanic, their chances of admission to a selective college is severely diminished!</p>
<p>Yes, there will be fewer blacks at Harvard if there is no affirmative action based on race. But there are few Asians in the NFL and a lot of black people, and I don’t see anyone saying that there should be affirmative action in the NFL.</p>
<p>Discrimination against whites and Asians is WRONG and horrible!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>One of the problems with discussions of the term “affirmative action” is that they easily fall into the fallacy of equivocation, </p>
<p>[Equivocation</a> - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation]Equivocation”>Equivocation - Wikipedia) </p>
<p>because not everyone agrees what “affirmative action” means. But if “affirmative action” is taken to mean “granting a preference in the admission process to OTHERWISE INDISTINGUISHABLE applicants,” then, yes, there are definitely colleges that practice affirmative action on the basis of race. There have been court cases on this, and the University of Michigan has said explicitly that it did this up till past the day when a voter initiative in Michigan banned the practice. Other states don’t have the same ban, and their state university systems may still do much what the University of Michigan did, and it may be that many private colleges and universities do also. See </p>
<p>[Amazon.com:</a> Creating a Class: College Admissions and the Education of Elites: Mitchell L. Stevens: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Creating-Class-College-Admissions-Education/dp/067402673X/]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/Creating-Class-College-Admissions-Education/dp/067402673X/) </p>
<p>for a very recent book by a sociologist who was allowed to be part of the admission process at a college to see how the process worked. He sat in on admission decisions in committee. </p>
<p>On my part, I originally understood “affirmative action,” when I first heard about it in the 1960s, to be aggressive recruiting by colleges to invite all qualified applicants, even applicants without family or legacy ties to the colleges, to apply and be evaluated on an even-handed basis. If that is what affirmative action means, I am all for it. Not all strong applicants are equally aware of what colleges are out there or of how to apply to them. </p>
<p>I’ve previously indicated my agreement with Laura D’Andrea Tyson, a former economic adviser to President Clinton, on the subject of socioeconomic “affirmative action,” which I take to mean admission preferences in the context of her article advocating the practice. </p>
<p>[BW</a> Online | July 7, 2003 | Needed: Affirmative Action for the Poor](<a href=“Businessweek - Bloomberg”>Businessweek - Bloomberg)</p>
<p>So, what keeps colleges from just filling their diversity rolls from lower socioeconomic URMs? How does anyone know they’re not?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That evidence was already cited in my previous reply, and more extensively in other posts in this thread. Following up on your interest in this issue, I will repost the references about poor students that have been put in this thread earlier. </p>
<p>[BW</a> Online | July 7, 2003 | Needed: Affirmative Action for the Poor](<a href=“Businessweek - Bloomberg”>Businessweek - Bloomberg) </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.educause.edu/ir/library/pdf/ffp0621.pdf[/url]”>Error; </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.educause.edu/ir/library/pdf/ff0615S.pdf[/url]”>Error; </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.tcf.org/Publications/Education/carnrose.pdf[/url]”>http://www.tcf.org/Publications/Education/carnrose.pdf</a> </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.tcf.org/Publications/Education/kahlenberg-affaction.pdf[/url]”>http://www.tcf.org/Publications/Education/kahlenberg-affaction.pdf</a> </p>
<p>[A</a> Thumb on the Scale | Harvard Magazine](<a href=“http://harvardmagazine.com/2005/05/a-thumb-on-the-scale.html]A”>http://harvardmagazine.com/2005/05/a-thumb-on-the-scale.html) </p>
<p>[The</a> Best Class Money Can Buy - The Atlantic (November 2005)](<a href=“http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200511/financial-aid-leveraging/4]The”>http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200511/financial-aid-leveraging/4) </p>
<p>[The</a> Harvard Crimson :: News :: Recruiting a New Elite](<a href=“http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=510012]The”>http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=510012) </p>
<p>[Cost</a> Remains a Key Obstacle to College Access](<a href=“http://www.equaleducation.org/commentary.asp?opedid=1240]Cost”>http://www.equaleducation.org/commentary.asp?opedid=1240) </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.jkcf.org/assets/files/0000/0084/Achievement_Trap.pdf[/url]”>http://www.jkcf.org/assets/files/0000/0084/Achievement_Trap.pdf</a> </p>
<p>[Legacies</a> of Injustice: Alumni preferences threaten educational equity–and no one seems to care. - Reason Magazine](<a href=“http://www.reason.com/news/show/123910.html]Legacies”>Legacies of Injustice) </p>
<p>[Promise</a> Lost: College-Qualified Students Who Don?t Enroll in College (IHEP)](<a href=“http://www.ihep.org/publications/publications-detail.cfm?id=117]Promise”>http://www.ihep.org/publications/publications-detail.cfm?id=117) </p>
<p>[Colleges</a> reach out to poorer students - The Boston Globe](<a href=“http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2008/11/10/colleges_reach_out_to_poorer_students?mode=PF]Colleges”>http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2008/11/10/colleges_reach_out_to_poorer_students?mode=PF) </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hkBGMsvJKRKaL67qxkOCaDByDJFAD94R70G02[/url]”>http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hkBGMsvJKRKaL67qxkOCaDByDJFAD94R70G02</a> </p>
<p>Below I’ll link to a list of readings for a summer institute for college admission officers. </p>
<p>[Harvard</a> Summer Institute on College Admissions, June 21-26, 2009, Suggested Reading](<a href=“http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~sica/reading.htm]Harvard”>http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~sica/reading.htm) </p>
<p>You’ll see there that several books are recommended that make an explicit case for “affirmative action” on the ground of race, and you can read the books to get a sense of exactly what admission practices each author may approve of. We can all be quite sure that some colleges are currently applying such admission practices to current applicants.</p>
<p>I looked at a lot of your cited sources, but can only guess at the point you’re making. Are you saying that there aren’t enough “qualified” lower socioeconomic URMs out there applying to top schools to satisfy their “AA”/diversity requirements/“quota”?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Very simple answer: financial aid. Even the elite schools don’t have an unlimited aid budget. Also, poor URMs tend to have lower test scores than URMs from educated backgrounds and sufficient resources (for things like test prep). Given a choice between a needy URM and a full-freight or half-freight URM, why would any college choose the former when it gains exactly the same benefit in publicity?</p>
<p>^^^Keilexandra</p>
<p>Publicity…</p>
<p>So, in the case of Harvard, they pick and choose black students whose families earn more than $150k?</p>