What should I put for race?

MattsMomFL · January 28, 2009, 6:07pm

^^^hoveringmom

I, for one, would love for you to expand on this.

MattsMomFL · January 28, 2009, 6:13pm

Do you know on what basis any of the court orders were drawn on? Did any occur in any of the elite privates? UF admits strictly on numbers, as I assume many of the large publics do.

Cali_Trumpet · January 28, 2009, 6:25pm

Mattsmom,

Every college wants to be more diverse. In case you have not noticed, it is often a selling point. “We have 8% black students and 15% Hispanic students”. Large competitive publics still have their ways of figuring out what race you belong to without breaking any rules. There are numbers to show AA exists, sometimes more prevalent in one institution than another, but it is still there in some way or form.

Keilexandra · January 28, 2009, 6:28pm

^^ I can’t speak for any other publics, but UDel is holistic for the 70% of OOSers.

MattsMomFL · January 28, 2009, 6:34pm

^^keil, are you using the term “holistic” interchangeably with AA?

MattsMomFL · January 28, 2009, 6:36pm

^^^Cali Trumpet

What numbers are you referring to?

Keilexandra · January 28, 2009, 6:56pm

^^ Nope. Just saying that UDel does not admit “by the numbers,” at least not openly–it proudly proclaims to be selective.

tokenadult · January 28, 2009, 6:58pm

Hi, MattsMomFL,

to answer your numerous factual questions, I invite to head back to the first page or two of the thread and look for the case citations of the major court cases. [Post</a> #29](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1061038198-post29.html]Post”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1061038198-post29.html) is the key post.

tokenadult · January 28, 2009, 7:01pm

Yes, Minnesota too claims NOT to be “by the numbers,” and it is plain that one admission factor that is looked at is student race, per Minnesota’s Common Data Set filing.

<a href=“http://www.irr.umn.edu/stsur/cds_2007_2008_TC.xls[/url]”>http://www.irr.umn.edu/stsur/cds_2007_2008_TC.xls</a>

(Question C7 on the section C tab of the Excel spreadsheet)

MattsMomFL · January 28, 2009, 11:03pm

So, have any court cases ever been decided against a private?

StitchInTime · January 29, 2009, 5:33am

<a href=“%5Burl=http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1061736326-post1146.html]#1446[/url]”>quote</a> So, have any court cases ever been decided against a private?

[/quote]

This investigation is worth keeping an eye on: [Department</a> of Education expands inquiry into Jian Li bias case](<a href=“http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2008/09/08/21307/]Department”>http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2008/09/08/21307/):

MattsMomFL · January 29, 2009, 5:47am

^^^Now that’s interesting.

On another note, it is also interesting that the article notes that Yale is estimated to have a 30% Jewish population. I was talking to an old high school classmate tonight who tells me our alma mater, Stuyvesant High School, is now 58% Asian - I imagine the rest is 30% Jewish and 12% other. It was around 40% Asian when we attended in the mid-70’s. It is a strictly test high school.

Is this really what we want our elite schools to look like?

StitchInTime · January 29, 2009, 5:58am

<a href=“%5Burl=http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1061736326-post1146.html]#1446[/url]”>quote</a> So, have any court cases ever been decided against a private?

[/quote]

Also see: [Affirmative</a> Action in Higher Education: A Current Legal Overview](<a href=“http://www.acenet.edu/bookstore/descriptions/making_the_case/legal/legal_overview.cfm]Affirmative”>http://www.acenet.edu/bookstore/descriptions/making_the_case/legal/legal_overview.cfm):

Columbia University
In December 1997, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit in New York reversed a lower court and ordered a jury trial to review charges that Columbia University discriminated against an instructor because he was not of Hispanic descent. Stern v. Trustees of Columbia Univ. in the City of New York, 131 F.3d 305 (2d Cir. 1997). The plaintiff, who had taught Spanish and Portuguese at Columbia since 1978 and even served as interim director of the university’s Spanish language program for two years, was allegedly not seriously considered for the permanent directorship because he is a white male of Eastern European descent. The university claimed that though the plaintiff was a finalist for the position, it chose another candidate based on qualifications, not bias. The person who was hired is described in court papers as an American of Hispanic descent. The plaintiff alleges that this individual had not yet earned his Ph.D., had less teaching experience, had written less extensively than the plaintiff, and was not proficient in Portuguese. The search committee at Columbia asked each of three finalists (including these two) to teach “tryout” classes, and found that the candidate they selected “mesmerized” the class while the plaintiff’s teaching was weak.

MattsMomFL · January 29, 2009, 6:19am

^^^^I’d be willing to bet that Eastern European descent is how the attorneys decided to describe their Jewish client.

Keilexandra · January 29, 2009, 7:39am

Note the words “strictly test” in your description of Stuyvesant. As I and many other posters have said repeatedly, opposing affirmative action is NOT opposing holistic admissions in any way, shape, or form.

Private schools can do whatever they like, within limits (for fear of losing federal funding), but most private schools have a non-discrimination statement anyway. It would be interesting to see what they would do if the courts ordered them to actually enforce those non-discrimination statements.

tokenadult · January 29, 2009, 8:15am

I guess the credited response would be, why not?

MattsMomFL · January 29, 2009, 8:23am

Well, what are the advantages to attending HYPSMC, etc? It would be those advantages bestowed upon predominately those of Jewish and Asian backgrounds. Yikes.

MattsMomFL · January 29, 2009, 8:31am

^^^Keil

yeah, but it’s also been made pretty clear that holistic admissions include areas that Asians [and Jews for that matter] generally don’t show much strength - like geographic diversity, lower socioeconomic status, and athleticism to name a few that come to mind. When it comes down to it, Jews and Asians knock the socks off of SATs, get As, and like to challenge themselves with AP classes. They also participate in Mu Alpha Theta, math competitions, and science fairs in much more heavy doses than they participate in drama, etc.

Keilexandra · January 29, 2009, 7:26pm

Indeed, Asian students often excel in academic-related extracurriculars. If that penalizes them in a holistic admissions process, I make no complaint. But if your presumption is sound, then removing racial AA will make little to no difference on the student body’s racial composition–since the overrepresented Asian students would still be weeded out based on similar ECs, etc.

If a school wants X% of engineers in its class, and also wants half of those engineers to be interested in theatre–sure. Heck, if a private school wants to exclude all engineers or all chemistry majors, be my guest. But race should not play a factor. If half of those X% engineers are Asian–so? They have demonstrated excellence and deserve to be recognized for that on a equal basis with their peers. And if there are no Asians among the theatre majors, I would not cry underrepresentation either.

Bay · January 29, 2009, 8:31pm

In my mind, the contention with AA stems from where one establishes the “pool” from which to determine whether discrimination is occurring. The anti-AA crowd looks just at the applicant pool, and calculates its arguments based upon the admitted racial percentages and measurable stats versus the applicant percentages and stats.

The pro-AA crowd (including universities, I suspect) looks at the broader picture, all the way down to the basic “All men are created equal” starting point. If the admitted class is not somewhat representative of the entire pool of American citizens, then something is deemed to be wrong with the entire system of education, of which colleges and universities are a part, because there should be no reason that citizens of every race would not want to be a part of the highly educated class.

The reason could be that the admissions criteria currently used favor certain races over others. Harvard, for example, seems to make a special effort to combat this by making clear that there are no minimum gpa or test score requirements (in fact, I’m not sure a h.s. diploma is required), in order to encourage all to apply. On the other hand, it is widely known (probably from USNWR-type ranking pressures) that H admits students with the top stats. This would obviously scare away many applicants who do not have those stats.

What should I put for race?

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