What type of engineering is most susceptible to outsourcing?

College Majors Engineering Majors
21

<p>Anecdote - Graduated with a degree in Engineering Physics and found a job in the military contracting field. Career accelerated, top reviews, promotions etc. Five years later bottom fell out, military cuts, no budget, no work, no commercial company would touch me.</p>

<p>Returned to school. Graduated with EE degree, top of class. Six months later finally found work in the fledgling field of fiber optics (almost an entirely US field). Three start ups later (one successful), reached VP. In a heartbeat, all jobs shipped overseas (one place went from 150 line workers in the US to none in three months). All driven by “cost,” (read stupidity). During my time in the field the size went from about 5000 to around 30,000 down to probably under 3000 now. All in the space of roughly eight years.</p>

<p>I’ve watched as friend after friend leave engineering. Each ended up happier, working way less hours for equivalent pay doing something else (lawyer, doctor, several store owners, real estate agents - ok so this one’s in trouble now but for a while it was gravy). </p>

<p>Bottom line. In engineering just about every problem you try to solve is how to get the most reward for the least cost. All those who got out have easier, more stable lives and get paid equivalently. Most no longer worry about age obsolescence, something that starts at about age 30 in engineering. Evaluated as an engineer, the field of engineering is too much effort for too little reward, a waste of time.</p>

<p>During my entire career, every year I heard how we need more engineers, from the news, from employers, from the government (way cool the way BLS actually promoted fiber optics needing more engineers while it was being crushed). We need more students. We need more H1-B’s. We need more, more, more. What they were really saying was we want to pay you less, less, less. </p>

<p>If you love engineering, really love it, take apart everything your given, pick up technical manuals for light reading and bring your laptop everywhere you go, then give it a shot. The joy of creating something unique is amazing. But its the rare engineer who has had a stable life, and even rarer has the engineer felt fulfilled. Do it because it’s in your blood, otherwise, there are a lot better ways to make a buck.</p>

<p>BTW - If I assume that in my career I’ve met and worked with possibly 150-300 engineers, If I had to make a throw a dart guess, I think that fewer then twenty remain in the field after 15 years.</p>

<p>Sorry its not a happier story.</p>

22

<p>A sad story, maybe, but their are serious problems with using personal stories as a basis for making judgments about things.</p>

<p>(1) We have no guarantee you’re telling the truth.
(2) We have no idea whether or not your stories are representative of the state of the field as a whole.
etc.</p>

<p>As for your particular situation, it could just be a series of unfortunate occurrences / facts of life. For instance, engineering physics is not as immediately job-oriented as engineering like aerospace, chemical, mechanical, electrical, etc. All of these other fields certainly make use of physics, so many employers may question the added value of having an engineering physicist over, say, an aerospace engineer, for an aerospace engineering position.</p>

<p>As for EE… well, the BLS does say that EE is suffering due to outsourcing. As for the particular field (fiber optics), maybe you were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. There’s really no way to extract from what happened to you a more lesson about the economics of labor.</p>

<p>While what the BLS does may not be perfect, they at least have a methodology and a lot of skilled professionals working on the study. Professionals whose job it is to make accurate assessments of these things. Their findings are reviewed and their sources made available.</p>

<p>I detect a troubling thread of anti-intellectualism in this discussion.</p>

23

<p>To be honest, I am not even sure that Lou Costello is even an engineer.</p>

<p>Just look at some of the things that he sais:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Yes, some engineers may like to take things apart but so do mechanics. There is a lot more to engineering than that. Its an academic discipline that requires an advanced understanding of science and mathematics. This is actually a stereotype. Also, when you read information on those “career” websites or school websites they often give people the impression that engineers continually create. This is not true. In fact, very few engineers actually get to design something in their lifetime. I mean real design work where you design something really exciting and important. And a lot of times its those that have advanced degrees.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Both of my parents, my brother and myself are engineers and all of us have had stable lives. My dad only got layed off once when I was a baby – but he was working abroad for a mine. </p>

<p>I know a lot of enigneers, and most of their experiences do not match what you are describing. What you are describing seems to be the exception rather than the norm.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I’m telling you that this last statement is complete crap unless you specifically went looking for people who were continually loosing their jobs and wanting to change careers.</p>

24

<p>Case in point. Personal eperience counts for very little in these discussions. If you have studies other than the BLS, by all means, I’d love to consult them.</p>

25

<p>I never thought I’d hear someone say being a doctor has less hours/less stress than being an engineer…</p>

<p>Medical knowledge quickly goes out of date too, you know.</p>

26

<p>it all depends what specialization, my buddies mom who is a anesthesiologist dislikes her job a lot, doesn’t plan on doing it for too much longer because of the hours, but she does work for a hospital. But his uncle who is a plastic surgeon loves his career. He owns his own practice and sets up his own appointments. Overall, even though doctors will work many hours, they are being compensated for it. Where as the engineer is doing it nearly off of sheer will. It is an arguable position, I know my dermatologist wouldn’t consider doing anything else. He loves his job, and has some serious cash in the bank. You never seem him without a smile on his face. He owns his own practice as well. Although, you don’t see to many engineers with a smile on their face. Now with many changes going to health care, and many doctors not getting paid what they used to, they might start feeling like engineers after a while. Then we are going to hear the cries that they don’t have enough specialist, which means we really want to pay you less for more.</p>

27

<p>The fact is generalizing anything can get you in trouble. Who cares anyway, live your life, make the money while you can, and live within your means. We can only predict or estimate so much. Life isn’t a bed of roses. You’ll have some mole hills to jump over here and there. Many people just don’t end up liking there jobs in engineering. Like so many other careers, they do it to get by. I don’t know too many people that would work if they didn’t have to. I know I wouldn’t. If you don’t like something, quit, find something else to do with your life. Life is too short to be miserable.</p>

28

<p>Why is there so much disdain for engineering on this board? Is engineering really that horrible? A waste of a career? Why are we all here? That should be a new topic.</p>

29

<p>This entire thread has become very, very discouraging. I’m starting to doubt whether I should major in EE or not, because it was my top choice at first…</p>

30

<p>Engineering is hardly a bad field to get into. The problem is a lot of the 20/30 something guys/girls used to making $100++/hr in IT/CS/Engineering become bitter when they are in their 40/50’s and out of work. Something this article (someones opinion) is trying to explain. </p>

<p>The funny thing is if you could ever ask any of these people what career they would have rather done it will almost always be in health care and to a lesser extent law. Why? because they are the only “jobs” that offer more money and career satisfaction (on average). So unless you want to go into medicine you may as well stay in engineering…</p>

<p>

</p>

31

<p>That guy’s obviously clueless…doctors have to take refresher courses/seminars just as often, if not more often, than engineers.</p>

32

<p>a few points.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>my stats. fifteen years in the business, Tektronix, Litton, Lockheed, short stint at HP and three small startups (one made it to the billions - my entry start-up too little stake too little pay-off, the other two went with the last crash and the one before it). been there done that. big stuff that flies into space, and small stuff that fits in your hand.</p></li>
<li><p>go to the source if you want advice. if you really want to know what its like, get off the college boards and start haunting the engineering boards. pick the job title you’re interested in and perform a job search (careerbuilder.com, dice.com, monster.com). look at the job requirements, the location and if they post it, the pay. call the company, especially if it’s small, and ask for a few minutes time with an engineer performing the role. get the answers directly from sources you can trust. read the paper. when cisco donates millions to build technical schools for training needed people, it makes the news (especially when the build the school in India).</p></li>
<li><p>my point still stands. a true engineer always looks for the greatest reward for the least cost. for those without an engineering education “cost” is wrapped in multiple meanings (look to control theory, mechanical or electrical engineering), it doesn’t always mean money. so don’t forget the other fields. if you think you’d make a great engineer, then you got stones, and you’d probably do great in many other fields as well. keep an open mind.</p></li>
<li><p>an apology to azndude1. i look at what i wrote, and at the wanttogotocornell’s comment and it appears i did go off topic. so, as for what type of engineering won’t go overseas, look for fields that require the engineer to be locally located. something associated with a power plant, a farm, some of the military stuff (note, this field has huge up/down cycles associated with government spending and politics), state civil engineers, water providers… something where you need to be here to do the job. anything else is fair game for outsourcing, and someone right now is probably trying to outsource it as we speak.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>warning, you need to also look to see if there is a push to increase H1B visa activity in your chosen field (google it). a famous trick for those companies wishing to go overseas that can’t, is to either contract a foreign company to bring workers to the US to do the job using overseas costing, or to claim the need for H1B’s (see - [H-1B</a> video shocker: ‘Our goal is clearly not to find a qualified … U.S. worker’](<a href=“IT news, careers, business technology, reviews | Computerworld”>IT news, careers, business technology, reviews | Computerworld)). </p>

<p><since this=“” board=“” seems=“” a=“” little=“” sensitive=“” -=“” i=“” am=“” not=“” knocking=“” the=“” h1b=“” engineer.=“” know=“” many=“” and=“” they=“” are=“” just=“” as=“” good=“” &=“” bad=“” in=“” same=“” relative=“” numbers=“” locals.=“” its=“” also=“” locals=“” who=“” could=“” do=“” job=“” take,=“” it’s=“” cost=“” structure=“” to=“” company=“” is=“” different.=“”></since></p>

<p>aside - a cute anecdote: California starting looking at hiring a Kansas contract firm to run its unemployment office (tech bubble bursting flooded their offices forcing hiring in the office, and raising costs to the state). costs were supposed to plummet. then Californians found out that to cut costs the Kansas outfit was going to subcontract its human resources (people) to India. outsourcing hits everywhere.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>if you really want to be an engineer, then instead of fearing outsourcing, embrace it. its a very real part of life in the field. during your education take language studies. make yourself useful to foreign companies as local representation. usually this is more the business, or the information gathering and dissemination side of engineering. it also can dramatically increase your personal rewards.</p></li>
<li><p>finally, and insignificantly, beware of commentary that immediately critiques conflicting opinions by calling the writer a liar. its a very weak argument, typically made by weak minded people. take advice from these sources at your own risk.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>best of luck.</p>

<p>ps - to the medical doctors of this world, as in engineering i recognize there are areas of higher and lower stress. but even if you assume the costs are similar, the rewards are not. engineers often work 5-20 hours overtime without pay on a regular basis. you ask for a doctor to stay late, you’re gonna be billed probably at a very high rate. engineers are labeled rightly or wrongly geeks. doctors are heroes. even the old rhyme is: “Doctor, Lawyer, Indian Chief” (there’s never an engineer in the whole poem ;-). the rewards differ.</p>

33

<p>so how safe is chemE?</p>

34

<p>

</p>

<p>Sometimes though, people do just speak crap. For example, if someone told you were we not in a recession…</p>

35

<p>“2. go to the source if you want advice. if you really want to know what its like, get off the college boards and start haunting the engineering boards. pick the job title you’re interested in and perform a job search (careerbuilder.com, dice.com, monster.com). look at the job requirements, the location and if they post it, the pay. call the company, especially if it’s small, and ask for a few minutes time with an engineer performing the role. get the answers directly from sources you can trust. read the paper. when cisco donates millions to build technical schools for training needed people, it makes the news (especially when the build the school in India).”</p>

<p>I would argue that this is precisely the wrong way to go about it. Let people who know what they’re doing conduct the studies, and read the results. Talking to a handful of people on your own isn’t going to get you anywhere… the results will be practically random.</p>

<p>“5. finally, and insignificantly, beware of commentary that immediately critiques conflicting opinions by calling the writer a liar. its a very weak argument, typically made by weak minded people. take advice from these sources at your own risk.”</p>

<p>That’s a thinly-veiled attack if I’ve ever seen one. My point stands… your personal stories have literally no weight here. You have no authority. If you want to make an argument, you really need to have some sources that we can verify and evaluate ourselves. This is why people conduct studies, and why we peer-review things before publishing them. It keeps wild conjecture and uninformed opinions from becoming too widespread in various spheres of influence.</p>

<p>I don’t deny that outsourcing is happening; in fact, I believe it is good and healthy, and ultimately in the best interest of everybody. But that doesn’t mean that all engineering fields are in trouble… in fact, several technical fields are experiencing explosive growth, as demonstrated by the BLS OOH. Perhaps there are other studies that lead to different conclusions. I would be happy to read them.</p>

<p>(Unsubstantiated claims in forums, blogs, twitters, facebook and myspace profiels, personal web pages, etc. do not count)</p>

36

<p>" so how safe is chemE? "</p>

<p>According to the BLS, there are going to be less manufacturing jobs but the explosion of the nano and bio fields will keep plenty of jobs available.</p>

37

<p>In terms of what is susceptible I think that it depends how cheap your are compared to your substitute. It depends on the sunk costs at your facility, transportation costs and a host of other factors.</p>

<p>In terms of work product, I think IT & CS are the most “susceptible” to outsourcing because their work costs very little to transport and sunk costs in terms of facilities is extremely low. Of course, I think the cost structure of these job titles is far more integrated than other industries because of that - meaning that I’m not sure how much more outsourcing is possible at this point. Top engineers at MS/Google/etc make 150K and those companies don’t seem to have any problem paying.</p>

38

<p>So the more easily the work can be done remotely, the more likely it is to be outsourced? This must be why civil doesn’t seem to be having any problems, and why IT has gone down the crapper…</p>

<p>What confuses me is how mechanical is losing ground. Is our manufacturing output really going down that badly? Surely mechanical engineers have a ton of other fields they could work in? It’s not like GM is the sole employer of MechEs…</p>

39

<p>Following statistics blindly is also never a good idea.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>This happens to be one of the 30 occupations with the largest decline (according to the BLS).</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Then they post this vague description of a “software Engineer”. Basically implying someone who hardly writes code, something like an engineering manager or software architect as a high growth area. Their distinction between a programmer and software engineer is not very clear. Can someone with more understanding explain it to me? </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>[Computer</a> Programmers](<a href=“http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos110.htm#outlook]Computer”>http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos110.htm#outlook)</p>

<p>[Computer</a> Software Engineers](<a href=“http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos267.htm]Computer”>http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos267.htm)</p>

40

<p>Computer programmers write code, and computer software engineers design software. Programmers can design software and software engineers can write code, but we’re talking about specialization here. The BLS OOH makes this distinction.</p>

<p>And it makes sense that the implementation part of the software life cycle be shipped out; this is the quick and dirty part, where having other people do it for you will give you the most bang for your buck.</p>

<p>And statistics can be misleading. For instance, consider this: while programming jobs are declining by 4%, there will still be more of them than there will be jobs in any other single engineering field.</p>

<p>2016:
Computer programmers: 417,000</p>

<p>Electrical and Electronics engineers: 306,000
Civil engineers: 302,000
etc.</p>

<p>In fact, why don’t we just look at CS/Programming/Software vs Engineering…</p>

<p>2016:
CS/Prog/SE: 1,181,000 (SE) + 417,000 (Prog) + 742,000 (CS/database) + 650,000 (comp. analysts) = 2,990,000
Engineering: 1,671,000 (everything under “engineering”)</p>

<p>I feel that this is probably in the ballpark of being a fair comparison. Needless to say, the BLS seems to indicate that there will be close to twice as many jobs for computer professionals as there will be for engineers.</p>