What's going on with the College Admission this year?

Parents Forum
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<p>Actually, I’ll tell you (repeat it) what “unfair treatment” most new arrivals from East Asia apparently get: They get zero information about how diametrically opposed our higher education system is, from theirs. The U.S. government apparently gives not two figs about their futures, or their future feeling of adjustment. Zero. </p>

<p>They don’t do this when it comes to employment. Yes, I know that many moons ago, immigrants from Europe were given very little guidance when landing on our shores, but since then we’ve realized what bad public policy it is to provide no guideposts. Even immigrants who intend to set up their own shops in complete self-sufficiency still need to know some of the regulations, taxes, social security facts of life, etc. We would consider it inhumane not to provide that information.</p>

<p>But when it comes to college admissions we apparently have no problem saying, “Hey, good luck figuring out how different we are from your country of origin.” This is a cultural blindness on our part. Even Asian families who have been here for awhile & are better informed, often have a difficult time coming to terms with these differences, because it’s never been made explicit.</p>

<p>I’m sure if in your own country, a score and a report card would make you “qualified” for a particular college, you would consider it natural to do the same here. You would not consider colleges accepting applications like yours Reach colleges; you would consider them Match colleges: colleges that most likely would admit you, because they have a rigid bar. That may explain why so many of them apply only to what we call Reaches: it’s a result of a misunderstanding of the definition of that here, vs. there. </p>

<p>I’ll post something similar on my own thread, since I’m the one that asked the question. It’s late now.</p>

122

<p>What help does the federal government give ANY kid or parent trying to figure out how college admissions works? Lets get real–Asian immigrants aren’t the ONLY parents who don’t understand this stuff. They get the SAME help as anyone else. </p>

<p>The responsibility for education in the US rests with local government. It’s LOCAL government that has the obligation of explaining the system to local students and their parents. If Asians feel local government doesn’t do this, they should make the effort to become citizens, register to vote, and make it an issue. (Here, non-citizens with kids in school can vote in school board elections, so they can use that power without becoming citizens. )</p>

<p>I live in NYC and frankly I think state and local government, helped by immigrants themeselves, do a GOOD job of explaining. First, the state has HEOP–Higher Education Opportunity Program–which helps fund special programs and preferred admissions to PRIVATE colleges in New York State for disadvantaged kids. (If a private college accepts a disadvantaged kid, the State of NY gives money to the college for support programs.) And just about every guidance counselor in the state KNOWS about HEOP–and Questbridge and any other program that helps disadvantaged kids. I’ve interviewed students in the top track at one of NYC’s less than average high schools for my alma mater, and I would nominate their college counselor as one of the best, most savvy, I’ve EVER seen. I can’t imagine anyone caring or doing more at any high school. </p>

<p>My NYC city council rep is using some of her “discretionary” money --money you get to do things in your district–for an event explaining college admissions with reps from several NYC colleges and others knowledgeable about the system. There are flyers all over my neighborhood about this. It’s for kids who are freshmen and sophomores and their parents. Held at night, so working parents can attend. She’s not doing it just out of the kindness of her heart; she is doing it because it makes voters happy. </p>

<p>The after-school “prep” schools which many Asian immigrant kids attend push hard to get the kids enrolled in them into top colleges–and publish ads announcing where their students were accepted in the local Asian language newspapers. They are VERY savvy about how it works. </p>

<p>At my kid’s old high school, all the notices are translated into about six languages…by parent volunteers. So, everything about the deadlines for taking tests,etc. gets translated into any language that a volunteer will put it into. That includes Chinese, Korean, and Vietnamese. Some ethnic groups have their own parents association–an idea started by our black parents. (Many black parents aren’t American, which is why it’s not the African-American Parents Association.) In my kid’s day, the Korean Parents Association held numerous workshops about college admissions in Korean. </p>

<p>A Chinese immigrant Ph.D. with a son who got into Harvard donated hundreds of hours calling and convincing Chinese parents to fill out financial aid forms and helping them do it. He also fought the battle about citizenship. (You can’t be a National Merit Scholar unless you are a citizen. Starting about sophomore year, the GCs encourage legal immigrant kids to apply to be US citizens. Some of the parents don’t like this. It helps to have someone explain that it makes it easier to get fin aid.) If any kid said his immigrant parents didn’t understand the process, the GCs would make a real effort to find someone who spoke their language and could help. </p>

<p>If it’s not obvious, I applaud all these efforts. </p>

<p>But reality is that the FEDERAL government doesn’t teach anyone this stuff. It’s local government that does. And the biggest impetus to do it comes from Asians and other immigrants. </p>

<p>There are parents who just will not accept reality–they exist in every ethnic group. But when they won’t, it’s usually someone successful in their own ethnic group who can get through to them. Certainly not government. Many of them FEAR goverment. </p>

<p>My kid participated in an EC which traditionally doesn’t attract many Asian kids. At this school, it does. Why? Well, a wonderful Korean immigrant kid got into Harvard. He did this EC. That fact was explained at one of the Korean Parent Association’s workshops and suddenly every Korean kid in the school wanted to join! </p>

<p>The reason I’m posting is that to some extent at least, each group has to help its own. That’s how it’s worked for generations. And there are some extraordinarily successful Asian Americans. If Asian Americans think the system is “unfair” they can use their clout. I’d bet a lot that if Yo Yo Ma–one of Harvard’s most famous alums–took an interest in admissions there and ties some big bucks to reforms, it would help. </p>

<p>Princeton has made some big changes to admissions in recent years. It is now seeking out “Stuyvesant types”–the kids who might otherwise be known as nerds. It is deemphasizing geographic diversity. Know where the impetus for those changes came? From the faculty–particularly Jewish faculty, many of whom had been “Stuyvesant types” themselves. Princeton is now accepting a LOT more kids from NYC’s public magnets and emphasizing geographic diversity a lot less than it did under Hargadon. </p>

<p>So, stop looking for the “US government” to solve this problem. And remember, it’s not just immigrants who don’t understand how college admissions works.</p>

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<p>They might be going overboard with the “nerd factor” at Princeton. </p>

<p>Also, if you think there is any underrepresentation, just check out the Princeton 2012 facebook members.</p>

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<p>epiphany, I do not see any reason for the federal government to “inform” Asian (or any) immigrants about our educational system. There is plenty information out there already, much if not all of it available free online and in public libraries. If it is true what you say – that Asians apply in disproportionately large numbers to a disproportionately small number of schools – then I doubt it’s the lack of information to blame. It’s a decision based on cultural assumptions the federal government should have no interest in regulating.</p>

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<p>Post 128 is absolutely correct. Princeton & other Ivies/reaches are merely trying to hold the line on rampant over-representation. As others have said, lots of people whom those Universities value do not want to attend a 50% Asian school. That becomes especially important when you look at majors/programs. I will guarantee you that there is not an even spread of majors/interests represented by Asian applicants to the Reach schools. There is much more of an even representation of interests by non-Asian applicants.</p>

<p>To the folks disagreeing with me about US gov’t responsibility, I respect your different point of view. I actually am mainly basing my opinion on the constant mantra of Asian parents who claim (as in this thread), “I don’t understand.” You can say all you want to that the info is ‘out there,’ and that the gov’t does not inform its native citizens, either. However, with a culture that rests on such different assumptions, and a country which has been so much more isolated from our system than many other distant countries, I think that more aggressive efforts may be in order. I also look at it from the point of view of the colleges’ efficiency. </p>

<p>The one area that I will agree with in this respect, is that Asians self-segregate too much when it comes to college strategies – i.e., they check in too much with other Asian families, it seems, as opposed to non-Asian families. (OP says he went to info sessions and the like, but did he further refine that by asking pointed, realistic questions of parents who had been through the process & know it well, not immigrant parents?) Or did he just filter out what he wanted to hear & want he didn’t want to hear? Because when our Yale rep told her audience that Yale could fill its class 3-4 times with qualified applicants, we listened hard, & remembered. And when my D later got accepted to Yale, we considered ourselves fortunate (& were surprised).</p>

<p>Indians have far less trouble understanding that our system is different. Perhaps it’s the interface with the West that is much more prominent there. (British influence, and often still educated in British institutions. Most when they come here speak & understand English fluently. But mostly, they get it pretty immediately that this is a different approach to college admissions, and they do not resist that information, even when/if they don’t like the info.</p>

<p>I also wondered how closely the OP was listening to the demographic horror-stories, which cannot only exist on CC. (The difficulty of admission when applying from the NE or mid-Atlantic.) His use of the word ‘township’ suggests to me that the location is NJ or PA. It’s not that his S isn’t special. Truly, he is, judging by the facts set out. But his S is undoubtedly one of many similar candidates from the exact same region: there’s the problem.</p>

<p>Education is as basic as employment, and figures into it: that’s all I’m saying.</p>

126

<p>If you think that people from various ethnicities (or gender) are all equally enthusiastic about attending a non-diverse school, you are mistaken. Lots of Asians post on CC about how they do not want to attend a heavily Asian school. Same for blacks attending black colleges: if offered, they often choose to be educated where they will get more viewpoints.</p>

<p>Sorry if you have a “problem” with that.</p>

127

<p>

I’m asian and I agree with this statement. However, think of what would happen if instead of it being asians who are overrepresented, if it were African Americans that are overrepresented. What would people say if we put a quota on African Americans? People would cry “racism” immediately, and the black population would definitely be much more vocal than the Asians, whom I think take this surprisingly well. What if there was a quota on Jews, and people were asked to list their religion instead of race? The Jews would probably be very vocal about this as well.</p>

128

<p>“where less than 1% represent Asian American.”</p>

<p>Are you saying that you believe that at any of the Reach(highly selective) colleges in this country, there is a <1% Asian population?</p>

129

<p>“think of what would happen if instead of it being asians who are overrepresented, if it were African Americans that are overrepresented. What would people say if we put a quota on African Americans?”</p>

<p>IF, IF, there were so many blacks that high-profile, multi-racial institutions felt they needed a ceiling on their enrollment, THEY WOULD NO LONGER BE – HELLO, UNDER-represented. They would then be OVER-represented at such Ivies & the like, there would be no AA for them, & their enrollment would similarly have to be held in check to achieve more rounded appeal to the entire nation/globe, which is what these institutions seek to be. Funny, I don’t see that happening any time soon.</p>

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<p>

You misread my post. How would people respond to putting quotas on blacks if it is necessary? Many people would deem this to be over-the-line racist.</p>

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<p>^au contraire.</p>

<p>Again, if it is “no longer necessary” to encourage admission of blacks, then blacks will be thrilled not to have special considerations (or doubts cast on their potential or achievement, esp. in the instances where that is simply not true).</p>

<p>You are painting (& stereotyping) with way too broad a brush.</p>

132

<p>can tell you an over represented white private we visited this weekend got the thumbs down from my white daughter and her friend.</p>

<p>They said it gave them the “creeps” that everyone was white</p>

<p>so yeah over representation of ANY group turns away prospective attendees from all sides. shock even from whiteys :)</p>

133

<p>^^exactly. (Post 139)</p>

134

<p>that article is 4 months old and the proposal has gone nowhere, and is unlikely to be considered under the new UC Regents chairman’s watch.</p>

<p>What some asians don’t understand or want to understand is that just because PRIVATE colleges in the US receive a flood of applicants from a particular group of applicants, the admissions office is under no obligation to accept the same proportion of students from that group relative to other applicants to the school. The admissions office make the decisions regarding the makeup of the admitted class based on their idea of a “diverse” student body. Epiphany has tried to say the same thing numerous times. It would do many asian applicants a world of good if they stopped doing the same things as so many other asians seem to do- piano lessons , math contests, etc. The “lemming” approach, no matter how well intended, always results in the difficulty of differentiating oneself from the rest of the “pack”. I have seen this happen, particularily with regards to music. For 4 years, my son was the only non-white[ let alone male] student in a Russian piano teachers studio. All the rest of the students were asian and not all were talented by any means. As long as asians self segregate, and all apply to the same “name” colleges, the majority will be disappointed with the results.</p>

<p>This isn’t China, or Japan, or India. College admissons are done differently here. College acceptance practices in the US are not based solely on a meritocracy system, where you have only one chance to determine the path of your life. There are thousands of paths[ colleges] here to choose from.</p>

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<p>

But sometimes that would go against the “do what you love to do” maxim :confused: aka me.</p>

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<p>Just as all kids who love soccer are not going to be recruited to play at a Div 1 college, not all asian students who love music are going to be accepted at a selective college. Nothing is stopping talented music loving asian students from applying to the thousands of other colleges in the US that aren’t considered “Ivy’s” except cultural bias.</p>

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<p>

This become old saying in CC by now. Its like to say “unless you see or touch the atom, it dose not exits”.</p>

138

<p>What an inaccurate analogy (post 146). Comparing something visible by opportunity with something invisible by nature? No, comparing 2 things that are in the same category – both tangible, but one not seen.</p>

<p>The fact is, the only thing that would please many Asian parents, esp. on CC, is a 100% acceptance rate of every Asian which they personally consider (or assume) is 'highly qualified." What those parents refuse to accept is the SIMILAR DISPROPORTIONATELY HIGH REJECTION RATE of non-Asian ORM’s – i.e., Caucasians (relative to their application rates)</p>

139

<p>This topic has been debated year after year on CC. Most on this thread seem to agree that the bar for asian kids is set somewhat higher at selected elite schools (justified or not).</p>

<p>But I think the OP is a ■■■■■. There are only about 100 or so Siemens regional finalists nationwide. With decent SAT I, II scores, it is simply unimaginable (and unheard of) to be rejected by all of HYPMSC.</p>

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<p>

Oh, but there are. You’ll be surprised.</p>