What's Your Definition of "Elite"

@ThankYouforHelp @crimsonmom2019 @exlibris97 This is interesting that Berkeley is so difficult for highly-ranked prep schools in CA. I wonder if some CA publics do things that optimize what looks good to the UC system at the expense of what looks good to elite privates?

Our suburban public school with ~60% going to (free) community college had 27 students accepted to Berkeley this year (92 applied, 11 attending). That is of a class of 500 (with 450 graduating). That is about typical for previous years.

We typically only have single students accepted at various private elites. This year we had 3 to Stanford (some athletic), 1 to UChicago, 1 to Harvard (not attending so not sure if accurate), 1 to Yale, 1 to Penn, 1 to Cornell, 2 to Brown, 4 to Dartmouth, 1 to Caltech, and 1 to CMU for CS. Zero to most of the other elites.

I don’t think I’ve heard of anyone who got in somewhere more elite who didn’t also get in at Berkeley, but we don’t have access to information like that.

yeh, I have been to two information sessions at Stanford, and it was mentioned by an ADCOM both times, that Cal is Stanford and MIT’s biggest rival. The three schools want the same students. I heard it in person. 2014, 2016

@Ohiodad51 A lot of high schools don’t provide class rank, so when you see Colleges report that they have say 90% of entering students from the top 10% of their class, what that really means is 90% of the ones that have a class rank, which can be as low as 30% or so of entering students, are in the top 10%. The others are unknown.

A school can conceivably “game” the USNews numbers by accepting mostly top 10% from the limited pool of applicants with class ranks but focusing more on SAT/ACT on the remaining ones. I don’t have evidence this happens, but I wouldn’t put much past colleges. A lot of the numbers in USNews are subject to some sort of manipulation.

^ Ah, now I understand. Thanks.

I think that means if only 30% of all students admitted to that college submit any rank at all, the “% of our students in the top 10% of their HS class” stat doesn’t mean a lot.

@bclintonk re: UVa applicants - “assuming at least half of those were instate”



UVa always gets many more OOS applicants than instate. According to Dean J from UVa, they got 29, 005 applicants in 2013- 8831 instate, 20, 174 OOS. The "unofficial " 2017 numbers she posted were 36, 807 applicants - 10, 942 instate, 25, 865 OOS. 39% Instate acceptance rate, 22% OOS. UVa is only about 30% OOS.

@exlibris97 They also place a huge emphasis on being in the top 9% of your class, as noted above. If S had been in the class behind him, he probably would have been admitted. My D18 will end up with a similar GPA and is in the top 3% of her class. C’est la vie. He’s happy where he is so I’m happy. Though it sure would’ve been nice to have another Golden Bear in the family! :slight_smile:

@Ynotgo The prep school my S attended actually stated at a sophomore college meeting if the UCs were our main focus, we were at the wrong place. I have no idea why… Then again, the placement at top schools was ridiculous. There were double digit students who matriculated to Harvard, Brown and Cornell with just shy of double digits to Stanford and U Chicago. Interesting stuff…

So my first student at an elite prep school is now at UC Berkeley. Her roommate from same elite prep school got rejected from Cal and is now at Princeton. Both these students chose Berkeley as their top choice.

Don’t know why there is so much shock that students who get rejected by Berkeley can get into Harvard. Berkeley was just ranked 4th in the world rankings by USNWR. Princeton and other ivies fell way behind in the rankings.

UCB does reserve spots for kids transferring from community colleges. They may be taking these over top prep school kids due to their commitment to give opportunities to smart kids in state who show talent/promise but haven’t had opportunities to attend elite private high schools.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/rankings

Because USNWR world rankings are not the USNWR rankings for US students. There it is #20, well behind Harvard, Princeton, Stanford etc. I don’t think any joint yield stats place it at the HYPS level either. From what I can tell UC Berkeley intentionally emphasizes aspects of the application that will broaden its pool across the state (e.g. both in its greater emphasis on grades and in the way it weights those grades). Privates have different goals. So it isn’t surprising large, not so elite publics in CA have an easier time placing students in UCB than elite privates. UCB seems to have it set it up that way on purpose.

You see that with UVa as well Kids rejected that get into higher ranked , private schools. Their stats continue to rise, as they do with all the top publics. For 2017, the 75th percentile has gone up to 1490, 34ACT, 93.4 % in top 10% of their class. Virginia, California, Michigan, NC, etc. are lucky to have such great flagships. All great schools.

In my kids HS, a suburban public in CA, the number of graduates accepted to UCB is about 50 per year (out of six hundred) while to Ivy/M/Stanford/Chicago is only about 5. A couple of neighboring public HSs have about the similar pattern. My speculation is that these HSs are predominately Asian Americans who have a much easier time gaining admissions to UCB based on academics than to Ivies/M/S/C that use holistic. I think that Ivies/M/S/C being much more selective–thus “elite”–is largely true among most CA kids.

@sevmom,

That’s interesting sevmom, thanks for the data. I stand corrected. Still, Michigan is probably getting about twice as many OOS applications as UVA. Michigan’s total applicant pool in 2017 was up another 7%, to 58,590… My guess is most of that increase came from OOS applicants, as the in-state applicant pool has been pretty constant at between 10,000 and 11,000 for some time, and the overall pool of instate HS graduates is actually declining.

@northwesty,

I agree with your description of the “virtuous cycle” of OOS admissions at Michigan: as the number of applications increases, it becomes more difficult to gain admission, boosting entering class stats and making admission appear even more desirable, leading to further increases in the size of the applicant pool. Rinse and repeat. But I think you perhaps overstate the degree to which it’s OOS stats alone that are driving up overall entering class stats.

The university’s admissions office has long maintained that the stats of instate entering freshmen are just as strong as those of OOS entering freshmen. They don’t provide hard data, but IMO it’s plausible. HS GC’s in Michigan tend to “steer” their students toward instate publics; there just aren’t that many Michigan residents (relative to the size of the college-bound pool) who leave the state even for elite private schools, and relatively few attend private colleges and universities in the state. But there’s also a lot of self-selection and GC steering when it comes to in-state choices: if you don’t have the credentials to get into Michigan, you probably don’t even bother to apply and instead shoot for Michigan State, and if you don’t have the credentials for Michigan State, you apply to one or more directionals. (It’s not quite as clearcut as that, but you get the picture). As Michigan has become more selective, it hasn’t increased the size of the instate applicant pool, but it has strengthened the quality of the instate applicant pool because weaker applicants self-select out and stronger applicants self-select in (and both groups are reinforced in those choices by their GCs).

And for the same reasons that drive the OOS virtuous cycle, instate yield continues to climb, now running around 70%. A combination of a stronger instate applicant pool and higher instate yield allows the admissions committee to be even more selective in instate admissions, and so you end up with an instate virtuous cycle operating in tandem with the OOS dynamic you describe. My perception is that the credentials gap between Michigan’s entering class and Michigan State’s entering class has continued to widen. Michigan’s 25th percentile ACT composite is 29, the same as MSU’s 75th percentile, suggesting relatively little overlap in the stats of their respective student bodies. Back in 1998, 70% of Michigan’s entering class had an ACT composite below 30, while at MSU that figure was 93%, indicating substantial overlap in entering class stats. In 2016, only 25% of Michigan’s entering class had an ACT composite below 30, while at MSU that figure remained at 81%. This can’t be explained by an increased OOS percentage alone, because Michigan was already at 29% OOS in 1998 (it’s now 40% overall and 47% in the 2016 entering class). And MSU has also increased its OOS enrollment from 9% in 1998 to 17% in the 2016 entering class. No doubt the entering OOS freshmen at Michigan have stronger stats and represent a larger fraction of the entering class than they did in 1998, but the instate freshmen are also stronger than they were a decade or two ago, as Michigan mops up most of the best-qualified instate students.

Looking at it another way, UC’s can 't discriminate based on race, hence the high Asian population, but its not just because of academics, they too pass any “holistic” muster, whileThe ivies and others hide behind the “holistic” approach. Just another way to look at it. Let’s eliminate race in college admissions. From my lips to US Supreme Court. Disrimination based on race can’t endure. MLK’s dream is for everyone.

@tk21769, regarding post #103, you included some that didn’t meet both criteria and left off other similar stats schools, so I’ll throw Hamilton on the list as while it had a 24% acceptance rate last year with avg SAT’s over 1400 and an avg. ACT of 32 it’s solidly in the mix. And it’s also one of the ~40 need blind / meets 100% of demonstrated need schools.

UVa is also very self selective for instate students. Many kids without top stats and EC’s don’t bother to apply. Michigan is MUCH larger than UVa , with many more freshman seats to fill. With Michigan’s OOS numbers around 50% of the freshman class these days, maybe more OOS kids feel they have a decent shot there . Michigan seems very appealing so no surprise they get lots of applicants.

This is a comment on in state applications in Michigan, which I’m familiar with. Over the last two decades, the self sorting described by bclintonk has grown stronger. Both anecdotally, and also think in changes to the SAT/ACT ranges among the different universities. For example, I think UM’s lower 25% used to be similar to MSU’s upper 75%, but I think they’ve now separated. So the kids have a pretty good idea where they slot in, and aren’t too motivated to thrown in desparate applications. Obviously they all still reject many in state applicants, but there really isn’t a mass of very hopeful applications. Think GCs may play a role as bclintonk also stated.

Isn’t there UM- Flint as well, wouldn’t that come After Ann Arbor and before MSU in the stat ranges?

I don’t think so. There are several directional UM’s - UM-Flint, UM-Dearborn, and maybe some I don’t know. They are primarily commuter schools, and don’t have an academic rep. As far as I know the in-state stats among publics are UM clearly at the top, MSU and Michigan Tech very similar, then lots of others including places like Grand Valley State and Wayne State that are mostly unknown outside the state. The deal UM has with a high cache among strong, full-pay OOSs is something a lot of places would love to have.

i should have noted above that I missed that most of what I said about the act ranges repeats the previous poster. One new thing is I think they actually separated even at the 75/25 level now. And anecdotally, the students self-select more than ever.

“You see that with UVa as well Kids rejected that get into higher ranked , private schools.”

UVA is a very popular EA application for kids who SCEA to HYP since a state school app is allowed under the SCEA rules. Every year you see OOS kids who got into their SCEA and get turned down or deferred by UVA. Those kids are always unhooked at UVA.

UVA OOS is very tough if you are unhooked. UVA is a pretty big legacy school. They give no preference to IS legacies, only OOS legacies. And their policy is to treat legacy OOS applicants (for admissions purposes) as if they are IS applicants. That’s big. So a good chunk of the UVA OOS admits are taken up by the OOS legacies. My impression is that UCLA and UCB (by law) don’t do any legacy, and that legacy at UM is pretty minor. I think UNC does legacy just a little bit.

So the very typical OOS pattern I see is that (i) all the high end OOS legacy kids get into UVA (becoming almost a safety for them), (ii) tons of very high end non-legacy OOS kids get rejected/deferred by UVA, but (iii) the kids in (ii) most often get into UM.

Hence the anecdotal impression that UVA OOS is much harder than UM OOS.