When is it worth paying a premium for a "dream" school?

Parents Forum
21

It’s like any other luxury good: if you want it and would enjoy it and can afford it, and there’s nothing else you’d rather be doing with that money, then it’s “worth it.” I disagree with those who say categorically it’s “not worth it” for a music degree. It might be, for some people.

I’ve personally never found it to be “worth it” to buy a Mercedes or a BMW. I use my cars for transportation, not for pleasure or as a status symbol, and my Honda CR-V reliably serves my transportation needs for a fraction of the cost of some luxury models. But I wouldn’t fault someone who buys a Mercedes or a BMW because they want, enjoy, and can afford one. It’s a question of personal preferences, priorities, and individual financial circumstances. No one can answer the question for you.

22

I would caution against more debt for an educator. In addition to a large debt that she will have to pay on a teacher’s salary, before she can get the debt paid off she will most likely be paying her own health insurance (and we all know how high premiums are becoming) and she will probably need a new car. She might even get married, buy a house and start a family. The emotional stress of trying to pay off debt could greatly impact her life in ways she hasn’t considered. Plus, music programs are often the first to go in schools, so who knows what THAT future holds even if she does get a job straight out of school.

BTW, looking at bclintonk’s post (#20 above), a friend of mine owns a Lexus dealership. He told me to buy a Toyota because it has the exact same mechanics as a Lexus just with different packaging. If the education of both schools will get her what she needs in life, the rest is just packaging.

23

Depending on the state, she may need a master’s degree within a certain time frame. While most education master’s degrees are done a class here, a summer there, that still adds up. And a lot of teachers I know work at something else in the summer (bartending seems to be popular, lol). A debt-free undergrad degree would be a great start.

My sister is a high school instrumental music educator, getting ready to retire this year. Her instrument is clarinet and she plays professionally, but she also plays flute at nearly the same level. She has had to fight against proposed budget cuts every year. Arts education is usually first on the chopping block, even if it state-mandated as it is in her state. She suspects that, after 30 years, they will eliminate her position once she retires.

24

It is a fair question and one only you and your family can answer. We find ourselves in a similar situation though with different schools and major.

In our situation, dream school is a direct program entry year one with many small classes and field work immediately. Very good and would be fine school has 2 years of gen ed and larger but not necessarily huge classes. Dream school has dedicated advisor day one and better support services for ADHD. Very good school has offerings but it would be student driven versus a lot more early oversight.

Grad rates are better at dream school as are early year internships and research but at the upper levels they equal out a bit.

From an academic standpoint we all lean towards dream school setting my S on the best path for success early on. With his ADHD it could make a huge difference. But it comes at a price and one we haven’t quite decided is worth it. We’ve offered a similar deal, matching the student federal loans with loans of our own.

That amount of loan for us doesn’t worry me, given our ages job security income retirement funds equity etc. It is a short term funding supplement (due to cash funding a chunk of the older two) that would be paid off early. I figure it’s the car I never bought him to be honest.

For my S, it’s doable but yes could be tight for a few years and it is possible dream school may command a slightly higher starting salary though it may keep him from his dream work cities in the short term from a networking standpoint.

If we can we would help him pay it off. It is likely that we can but I’m not telling him that.

I managed to pay off my own student loans (which would be about 18k in today’s dollars) within about 3 years with focused effort and my S has a similar discipline if he wants something badly enough (though 3 is unrealistic in his case). I’m not opposed to skin in the game to motivate good grades, graduating in time and finding employment quickly even if less than ideal (versus some I see who will not settle for less than the dream job).

At the end of the day it will be his choice and we support it either way. He is aware of what he will give up (ability to study abroad, possible funds for grad school, matching funds for a car, zero stress if it takes longer to graduate due to a dual major, etc) and what it will mean in payments and resulting disposable income. I trust him to decide what is best for him.

He also knows that very fine school is always a backup plan should he head to dream school and decide it’s not worth the price tag. Transferring would be easy and relatively painless.

Best of luck!

25

If she were to go to the more expensive school, you should have a plan in place for her to live at home for 3 years ofter she graduates to put every bit of money toward paying sown her loan. After the 3 year period, if she can afford to, her independent life begins.

26

Wow - a LOT of fantastic feedback and perspectives!

I am concerned about her stress level, as her health has been somewhat fragile the past few years (nothing earth-shattering, but she’s often “very tired” and “doesn’t feel well”).

Starting at BW, then transferring back to YSU would mean she’d lose the majority of her scholarships there. Transferring would save about $12k/yr instead of about $18k/year.

Living at home after graduation is something we’d be OK with…but that assumes she would GET a job close enough for the commute. And there’s no guarantee of that.

She is aware of what she would give up if she went to BW - financial freedom at graduation, less requirement to work while in school = more time to practice/study and less stress, an upgraded instrument, opportunities for additional private lessons/masterclasses/study abroad, ability to upgrade housing during school, possible funds for grad school/car/life.

She’s coming around to the reality of the situation. She now refers to BW as her dream school, but YSU is the smart option. (Most) adults are very aware that many, MANY times you have to choose the Toyota even though your heart wants the Lexus. We know it sucks, but unless there’s money burning a hole in your pocket, that’s just that way it is. 18-yr-olds aren’t practiced enough at making those decisions yet, so there’s more mental anguish. But our job as parents is to guide our kids to be responsible adults, so it’s a lesson that needs taught.

It’s hard to watch her struggle with it, getting so emotionally attached to BW all while knowing what the ultimate answer really needs to be. But we need HER to make the decision and figure out how to come to peace with it, even if she’s not overjoyed. If we step in and MANDATE the decision, not only could she become resentful, but she’ll lose that valuable practice of making an emotionally difficult choice.

27

I want to make it clear that for me the issue is debt, and only debt. I am the last person to devalue a music degree. If your family had the money to spare without loans, I’d say go for whichever program she prefers.

If she were a performance major, and the choice was between Julliard and Youngstown, It might be a different story. But it isn’t.

I think you are handling this very well, and you are correct that SHE needs to make the decision and be prepared to live with it. Best of luck. :slight_smile:

28

My D wanted to be a teacher for years. She went to a 5 year program, where she earned an undergraduate degree in birth through 2nd grade and K through 6 with a concentration in music (not a credential to teach music). Her masters is in special ed. Since she went to a state school, I was able to put her through with no debt for either of us. After one year of teaching, she decided she hates it and doesn’t want to be a teacher. If she had gone to one of the private schools we considered, she’d still be teaching to pay down the debt. While I am not thrilled about this state of affairs, it 's a lot easier to handle when I am not paying loans on a career she rejected. She is back on my health insurance, where she has another few months and then she’s on her own. She is looking for work that she will enjoy and that will provide health insurance.

NOBODY thought that MY daughter would be the one to quit teaching. She graduated her program magna cum laude, won many awards, was the only one recommended for a permanent placement by the supervisor of her student teaching and passed the new and harder state licensing exam with a very high score. Yet, here she is, not wanting to be a teacher.

What if you spend the extra $62K (plus interest plus loss of the use of the money for other purposes) and your D decides teaching is not for her?

29

You need a crystal ball to see into the future. Lacking that, I would lean a little more to where the sparkle and excitement are, if your dd can make it with the same instrument. The other option seems to be a bit of a continuation of high school life with the same teacher. It isn’t the sensible approach though.

30

Have you posted this on the excellent music forum here on CC? There are many parents there who are familiar with music ed programs and could advise you.

It sounds like you do have the money for your share, and she would have a $27k debt, which isn’t that bad. I feel strongly she should consider BW. The importance of the level of peers can’t be denied. Most schools provide some funding for summer programs and study abroad. And remember you won’t be paying for lessons anymore.

I am worried that this really isn’t “her” decision. I would think she could sense your feelings. I would do everything possible to enable her to go to BW. There are many benefits to being at the sparkly school that go beyond education for music ed.

And remember a music ed major is not locked in, even it that is their degree. It is a bachelor’s and allows access to many other jobs, grad school and professional schools like med, law, nursing etc

Please, for her sake, go on the music forum and ask there.

31

I don’t see 27K in loans for her a a big deal. If the BW feels right then I’d say go for it.

32

I usually advise going with the lower cost option unless there are specific reasons to go with a more expensive program (such as a specific program within the major that is unique to the school and is something that the student is passionate about). However, I think there are a few things worth considering in your case.

First, if your D is only borrowing $26K over 4 years, then you’re really only looking at $3K over the $23K subsidized loan limit. That’s not too bad.

Second, is your D interested in participating in any loan forgiveness program that is available to teachers? That could erase $17.5K of that debt within 5 years. https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/teacher#what-are-the-eligibility

Finally, I would ask what your strategy was when saving for college. Did you always plan to take out loans if the costs exceeded what you could contribute in savings prior to enrollment and towards tuition, R&B, etc. afterwards? If so, are your retirement savings strong enough to support taking out $26K over the next 4 years?

33

An update: This past weekend D spent 2 days at YSU. Friday we met with a YSU violin grad student who got her undergrad at BW, so it was great to talk with someone who was knowledgeable about both programs. Then a current YSU junior in the flute studio took us on a campus tour…and D found that she really liked it! She had never seen most of the campus before - just the little bit between the parking garage and the adjacent music building. So that was a very pleasant surprise.

Then D met with her accompanist to rehearse the piece she was playing for the masterclass the next day. After that, she met with both her flute teacher (the professor at YSU) and the Wind Director. Then we spent about an hour or so in the art museum just wandering around. She wasn’t in any hurry to leave, so that was good.

Saturday she attended the Flute Festival - trying out several flutes. She participated in the masterclass as the only HS student, and had a fantastic time!

She’s now (finally!) done some research into what YSU offers in terms of facilities, clubs, etc. And she even said yesterday that she’s possibly leaning towards YSU now. At least it’s more 50-50, where before she was all about BW and YSU felt like “settling.”

34

One thing I want to mention is that it is good that you considered your contribution. Regardless of what your D decides, she understands what it will cost her and you understand what you are comfortable borrowing. On the whole I think like many others do that the debt will look very different in four years than it does now. Now it looks like a solution to a problem. In four years it will likely be the problem.

35

YSU “average caliber of student would likely be lower than at BW,” - You’re right, that could be a concern. But flipping it around, there could be advantage to being closer to the top of the class at YSU… more solo opportunities, possible job connections etc.

36

@lvvcsf - “the debt will look very different in four years than it does now. Now it looks like a solution to a problem. In four years it will likely be the problem”

Yep - that is one of my biggest concerns.

@colorado_mom - “closer to the top of the class at YSU” As it turns out, she’s toward the top of the flute studio at either school. But according to the YSU grad student with the BW undergrad, YSU has a more developed network for job opportunities than BW apparently has…at least, for her.

37

I’d ask your daughter if money isn’t an issue where she’d go. She only goes to college once and $23k isn’t that much over her lifetime. Happy memory is priceless, and as parents we should do our best to make our kids happy.

38

“$50,000 in loans(split between student and parents)” - There would be loan burden for student AND parents.

39

@paize038 I would start off with this study:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/do-elite-colleges-lead-to-higher-salaries-only-for-some-professions-1454295674

I do of course understand that ROI is not everything, but this is where I would start my analysis. YMMV.

40

Update: We got an email yesterday afternoon from BW that they have revised her scholarship offer and added $2000~ Not 100% clear if that’s a 1 time increase, or renewable. This is in response to our request for a review, having sent them YSU’s offer. So I must say that BW definitely will do what they can to work with you.

Not 2 hours later, we got an email from the YSU flute professor that they have awarded D an additional $2000/year music merit scholarship! This is all due to the professor’s urging - we did not request any review there, since YSU is already so less expensive.

I’m going to hold off sharing her decision until after she makes it official. I appreciate all of the input, advice, links, and personal stories you all have shared - every one of them has been very helpful in seeing as many perspectives on this as possible!