When sex with your consenting spouse can become rape

My answer to both would be “yes” as well. If the coma were not “irreversible” the answer would be “no” for the kidney but still yes for the sperm.

@TV4caster - Honestly I am still trying to work out my feelings about why that “exes” comment upset me so much. Here is one part of it: I guess I do think that in the absence of law or modern culture, most men and women, like most animals, would behave very badly, including taking what they want, including sex, from weaker others.

I also guess I have been living under an assumption that most modern guys aren’t at risk of behaving like that, at least in my bubble, due to our acculturation.

So then I guess your comment made me frightened. You are almost certainly right that there is a population of men who transform from nice husband to scary rapist, due to divorce -related anger.

So what does that mean? It seems like it would have huge implications that we should discuss. Also, I didn’t think until reading the comment, about that angle on marital rape. I guess I figured it was more about sexual selfishness than anger. And I should probably listen to my own post about human variability, right? :slight_smile:

I would say yes to the breast milk, kidney, and sperm/egg. Even yes to continuing my wanted pregnancy. But still no to the sex, I think.

For the tattoo case I had to really try to put aside my own marked distaste for the practice, but I think that one night be a “yes” too.

I was also thinking that modern ideas of women as full humans with bodily autonomy are causing a lot if this rethinking, and that’s a great thing.

Re the prostitutes, I think sex is different than leg surgery :wink: and not just for the obvious reasons. Sex is by its nature, I think, ideally about enjoyment, at least recreational sex is. Enjoyment by both participants. It feels like someone “wanting” sex is more than consenting. Does the prostitute consent? Sure, barring some sociological analysis about how personal consent is meaningless under economic durress. But does she want to have sex with that guy? Likely not.

@fretfulmother Maybe I am living in a bubble, but I don’t see the transformation as happening from “nice husband to scary rapist”, but from “not-so-nice husband to scary rapist”. You know, the kind who is divorced because they weren’t so nice (eg verbally abusive, controlling, etc).

The sperm question is interesting. I think if I knew I wasn’t going to be around to be a father to my child, I’d prefer not to have the child. (Of course, that’s always a risk.) So I wouldn’t want to have sperm harvested in order to pass on my DNA.

But on a third hand, perhaps I’d prefer to let my wife make the decision if I were in that condition, because the impact either way would be on her and not on me.

@Hunt - there was a Dear Prudie letter where there was frozen sperm (or maybe frozen embryos?) and the guy died. The husband’s mother wanted the widow to inseminate and bear the previously-desperately-wanted baby. The widow was writing in about not being sure it was the right choice, and Prudie said “don’t do it” - I thought it was a pretty one-sided answer.

Ideally, couples should have the conversation about what they desire with one another and whomever they want to act as their durable medical power of attorney, so that even though it wasn’t something specifically indicated the person who has to make these tough decisions has an idea about the basic ideology of the person for whom s/he is deciding.

Much more basic issues about how much intervention, how many transfusions, using a ventilator & for how long, intubation, etc. come up routinely and these needs to be addressed so that the person who is making these tough choices can sleep well at night, knowing s/he is honoring the wishes of the incapacitated person to the best of her/his ability. I know this isn’t nearly as sexy as the other issues that have been raised about sex, tattoos, sperm harvesting, nursing, but these decisions are made daily in ERs and ICUs and that is why people need to have deep conversations with loved ones about these fundamental issues, including what quality of life is desired and at what cost.

POLST and advanced care directives are some help in guiding some of these conversations but always leave some gaps.

What do you all think of this:

When DH was diagnosed with colon cancer, he was 46. One of his docs was telling him that the chemo and radiation would make him sterile. The doctor asked him if he wanted to store some sperm. DH looked at me, smiled wanly, and said, “No, we’re done.” The doc said, “well, let’s say you get divorced, or God forbid, something were to happen to your DW. Are you sure you wouldn’t want to have a child with a second wife?”

Well as his wife I may have been a bit taken aback by that comment, but he makes a valid point.

It would have taken me more aback if DH had said “Yeah, now that I think about it, I might want to have another child with my younger second wife.”

You know when I think about it, that doctor is kind of a jerk to say that with you present. What exactly did he expect your H to say?? He certainly was not going to agree that it might be a good idea. I think I would have told him quite directly that I did not appreciate the implication.

@Harvestmoon1, I think you are right. Maybe it would have been best to ask the question out of my hearing. Of course, if DH had decided to go ahead with preserving some of his sperm, that’s a conversation to be had just between us, in private.

Yeah, I wasn’t crazy about the conversation at the time, but we had so many other concerns to face, it kind of got left behind rather quickly. But obviously I still remember it. I wonder if DH does. I’ll have to ask him.

At least H didn’t say - “no, I’ve spoken with her and she doesn’t want any children. We don’t want to ruin her girlish figure.”

^^^Haha, Pizzagirl. :smiley:

I wouldn’t harvest the sperm of a husband in a coma, no way. Too ghoulish for the child.

My ex-husband was prepared to give a kidney to a friend while we were married, but I talked him out of it precisely because, God forbid, our child might need it some day. So I’m pretty confident as to what his wishes would be for our child and would have had absolutely no hesitation approving that if he were in a non-reversible coma. Not sure that would be allowed under medical ethics guidelines. (The friend got a kidney from another donor, by the way, so I don’t feel too guilty talking my ex- out of it.)

<<
When DH was diagnosed with colon cancer, he was 46. One of his docs was telling him that the chemo and radiation would make him sterile. The doctor asked him if he wanted to store some sperm. DH looked at me, smiled wanly, and said, “No, we’re done.” The doc said, “well, let’s say you get divorced, or God forbid, something were to happen to your DW. Are you sure you wouldn’t want to have a child with a second wife?”
<<<

wow…did the doc ask your H when YOU were in the room?

If you weren’t in the room, then I guess it’s a Q that has to get asked, but if you were there, it’s kind of tacky. That sort of Q needs to be asked privately.

Hmmm, wondering if that doctor asks women the same question relative to her eggs ? My guess is no.

^^
lol…if the woman was 46??? No.

But, I could see a doc asking a woman who was - say 30 - who had a couple of kids and was facing a somewhat similar situation.

But let’s say a woman in her mid to late 30’s who runs the risk of sterilization because of chemo. H and she tells the doctor “they are done” as far as having children. Would he then say to the woman “well what if you get divorced and your new husband wants children?”

^^
Privately?? maybe.

In front of the H, I think is wrong. But I think it’s wrong to ask that in front of a spouse either way. Few spouses want to hear that their spouses want to be able to have children with some new, future spouse.

Yes I agree. But in Nrdsb4’s situation the doctor had the gall to ask that question to her H in the presence of Nrdsb4. Would he have asked that same question to a woman in front of her husband? I say not. Either way I agree it is not a question to ask in the presence of a spouse.