My default assumption is that a married couple will want to have sex even if one party is at the end of her life. (Maybe that’s optimism on my part as a soon-to-be-married person.) The husband doesn’t have the right to force himself on her, but does he have an obligation to provide love and comfort, whatever the nursing home bosses have to say about it? Isn’t he her next of kin, and authorized to make decisions about invasive acts like surgery? Who better to say what her decision would be if she were competent? She’s still an adult, just an impaired one.
I mean, suppose an elderly loved one is dying of dementia in a nursing home, and the home says don’t bring her her beloved Martini/chocolate/potato chips because it’s bad for her liver/diabetes/blood pressure. I’d be in the camp that says screw that, she doesn’t have long, and she should have what she wants. I’d tell the nursing home guy whatever he wanted to hear and bring her the damn Martini.
It just seems to me that the daughters and maybe some of the healthcare personnel were grossed out by the possibility of marital relations in that situation and may have put their own sensibilities above the needs of the couple. I also wonder if the husband might have some memory or comprehension issues, as well.
[url=<a href=“https://mckinneylaw.iu.edu/ilr/pdf/vol42p675.pdf%5DHere’s%5B/url”>https://mckinneylaw.iu.edu/ilr/pdf/vol42p675.pdf]Here’s[/url] a thoughtful article about the sexuality rights of people with dementia, including the rights of a person with dementia to have an adulterous relationship with another person with dementia when the healthy spouse objects.
The fact that a judge awarded guardianship of Donna to one of the daughters is significant to me. That process in and of itself requires affidavits and interviews. There had to be some reason that a judge would determine that the daughter would be a better choice to look after the best interests of Donna than the man she was married to.
I too agree that Mrs. Rayhons should have had what she wanted. But she was dying of Alzheimer’s, and I question whether intercourse with her husband was what she wanted, or whether it was instead what he wanted. As I said above, I don’t think we have enough facts to determine that. I’d love to hear the caregivers’ side of the story.
But say he did “force” himself on his wife and she didn’t understand was going on and disliked it. Assume for the moment he was taking inadequate care of her before the daughters stepped in.In other words, assume the worst.
I STILL don’t get how it benefits anyone to put a 78 year old man on trial for rape at great expense to the taxpayer and, assuming he’s convicted, requiring him to register as a sex offender, and probably go to prison. If his conviction is for rape, he’ll probably go to a prison for violent offenders.
How does this benefit anyone!!! Again, I do understand that if his wife were alive, she really was upset by the intercourse and he “forced” himself on her, that there might be a reason to prosecute him–to protect his wife. But bringing this case after her death–a death he doesn’t seem to have hasten in any way–seems wrong to me. YMMV.
Would you want your mother’s rapist to go free? Would you want to hear, “Yeah, he raped your dying mother, but we’re sorry for him so we’re not going to prosecute?” Those are not words I would want to hear. (To be clear, this is assuming arguendo with jonri that he’s guilty.)
To be honest, it is a difficult situation, there are questions here about how far does someone with dementia have to be gone where they cannot consent? For example,if the wife could not talk or was otherwise unresponsive, it would be pretty easy to say she cannot consent (someone like my MIL, totally out of it), but what if she is lucid enough to recognize him but otherwise has issues, is that rape? It sounds to me more like the daughters don’t like the husband,and were upset he had sex with her…the problem with something like this is if there are experts who will testify the wife was able to consent, then who is right? It sounds more like vindictive behavior, and personally I don’t see quite honestly how there is any justice in this if there is any doubt about whether she could not consent, the law is that the prosecution would have to prove it is rape beyond a reasonable doubt, if experts come in there and say she was capable of consenting, then who is right, the nursing home or the private doctor or the experts?
I don’t think I would view this as rape if I were one of her Ds. Obviously, YMMV. I just don’t think a 78 year old man who had been happily married to my mom for seven years during which they apparently enjoyed a good sex life and who drove 4 hours every day to see her is someone I would view as a rapist.
I’ll ask you another question, CF. What if this were her first and only H and the Ds were the product of that marriage?Legally, it would make no difference, of course. Assume it had been a happy marriage.Assume too that I knew…or at least suspected…that my parents had a wonderful sexual relationship. I thought my mom was pretty gaga and didn’t fully understand what was happening when she had sex with her H/my dad. I also knew he loved her very much. If he had sex with my mom and he wasn’t hurting her physically, would I press to have him tried for rape?
I don’t think so. And, I may be wrong, but I seriously doubt that the Ds here would be pushing for a rape conviction if this man were their father and their mom and dad were happily married.
It doesn’t matter to me what the daughters would have done if the guy were their father. They might still be convinced he forced her, but not want to turn their father in.
But he isn’t their father, and they believe he raped their mother. If I were the daughter, and my stepfather had raped my dying mother, I’d want him behind bars.
I’ve been involved the last six months in trying to get an estate settled for family members. The widowed deceased had married his high school sweetheart at age 70, after losing his first wife who was mother of his children almost 20 years earlier. It was very romantic. They were happily married almost a decade before she passed away. Now he is gone, too. Her grown daughters opposed the marriage and never liked the new husband. In trying to get all this finished up, their lawyer called to tell me, in essence, that they really just wanted the stepfather’s kids all in a room so they could vent about all their perceived outrages over the relationship. There is nothing rational about this. Everyone is sympathetic to their pain and earlier loss, but we can’t undo the fact their mother remarried and that was her decision. Unlike this case, she was definitely in her right mind and she bitched about those daughters all the time to me. Basically because they were trying to interfere in her marriage. They were worried he would spend all her money. What they failed to understand, because she never would be honest with them, was that she didn’t actually have any money. I know this to be a fact having spent way too many billable hours with the accountants and financial planner and lawyer who set up trusts for the couple.
There are sometimes as many points of view in these cases as there are participants. I don’t see how it is possible to sort it all out.
Even the caregiver will bring preconceptions to an account of the couple’s interactions. We had to have film to get someone charged with elder abuse. Are there cameras in the rooms at this nursing home? Are there any eyewitnesses to their sexual activity?
I’m just rambling. Lots of this stuff has just been my life for a while. Not the rape part, thank goodness.
ETA: I have been the provider of the damn Martinis.
I can understand that there can be fear of inheritance issues when a parent remarries. My h’s family was concerned that H’s mom would marry this gambler that was sort of preying on her at her assisted-living home. She agreed to have her assets moved to her kids’ names, with the understanding that her expenses would still get paid.
I just think it’s sick that these daughters were so worried that their mom may be having sex. I know that many are uncomfortable with the idea that elderly people have sex, and many don’t like the concept of their parents having sex.
@Cardinal Fang I will say that in my opinion is depends on whether they communicated their wishes beforehand. I sure hope that when I am completely “out of it” that DW (and the nursing home) follows my wishes and acts like I have given my consent (which I have).
I clearly don’t have the long term, first hand experiences with dementia some of you have had to deal with. This sounds heartbreakingly challenging. I’m so sorry.
Without having dealt with this firsthand, it bothers me anyone would choose to have sex with an unresponsive spouse. That does not seem loving behavior to me. In TV4caster’s case, there will be indications he is responsive. I am very uncomfortable with giving consent to have sex with a potentially non-responsive individual. Do I want to defend someone’s right to give that directive? I honestly don’t know.
Basically, I want people to put their partner’s interests first. Does that mean a spouse should grant these rights? Does it mean the grantee shouldn’t take advantage of the opportunity?
I do see many parallels to the drunken college sex debates in many threads here.
So you have no problem with your wife having sex with you while you are in a coma, for example?
I have communicated my wishes to my husband, and he to me. Both of us find sex with a non-responsive person distasteful, either as the person using their inert spouse as a sex toy, or as the person being used as a party doll. We do not agree to this.
I agree w you CF. I wasn’t talking about someone who is unresponsive. I’m talking about someone who is responsive but doesn’t have the capacity to articulate their feelings.
@alh, I was responding to TV4’s message #94 and hadn’t read yours yet, but I initially missed the part that TV4 is a guy.
I’d be very interested to know how most people would feel about about their spouse having sex with them when they were non-responsive. I wonder if there is polling on this issue. Is it different if the non-responsive spouse will wake up (eg they’re under anesthesia) versus they will never improve (eg, they have advanced Alzheimers and have forgotten who they’re married to, how to walk and how to eat)?
I do not view my marriage vows as unlimited permission to use my body.