<p>In our district, kindergarten is full day, like other grades. There’s also afterschool that goes until 6pm. This suits many parents who are used to having their children in full-day day care. Suburban parents who put their children in day care and work full time have reported dissatisfaction with the half-day and no afterschool in their districts. That may be another factor in their holding their kids back.</p>
<p>My kids went to a selective private school with a nominal September 1 cutoff. However, the school systematically advised parents of all but the most mature boys with summer birthdays to hold them back an additional year, and at the time (no longer) after K it would generally divert about 10% of the class into a two-year grade 1. I always thought that this was one of the little edges that the private schools used: in general, their kids were older than the kids in public school at every grade level.</p>
<p>My wife, with a November birthday, graduated at 16 from her (not very good) public school. Our daughter, with an October birthday, was two weeks shy of 19 when she started college. We often had to remind ourselves that she was actually a year or more older than we had been in the equivalent grade in school.</p>
<p>I think there are some educational issues as well as economic issues, here. Most people, especially most lower-income people, don’t necessarily have access to high-quality pre-schools (or freedom to stay home and raise pre-schoolers without parking them in front of the TV). In general, especially for at-risk kids, I think there are better outcomes from getting them into institutional environments with trained teachers earlier rather than later.</p>
<p>I agree JHS. Our school system has a pre-k program for low income families whose childern have not had access to any other kind of program. It is not mandatory. The families must apply for it. Reports are just as you would expect, these kids are having better success in Kindergarten than their peers in their socio-economic group who had no preschool experience prior to entering kindergarten.</p>
<p>Our school system ended full-day K in the early 90s and has resurrected it in stages over the past few years, in large part to help improve test scores and reading readiness for kids at the lower end of the socioeconomic scale. They started with the schools that had the highest number of kids on free/reduced meals and have moved to everyone else as budgets allow.</p>
<p>This is an interesting topic. My mother was pushed forward by her very ambitious mother. She resents it to this day (she’s 73).</p>
<p>One of mine, the super tall one, was within the deadline but at the youngest end of the scale. The other one was the oldest through primary school and one of the youngest in secondary school (different country).</p>
<p>In both experiences, there were numerous children who were pushed forward for superior talent–for supposed ‘boredom’ in the primary classroom. However, in 90% of the cases, that talent did not make up for poor social skills which required intense teacher/admin intervention. Nevermind a little boredom in the primary school classroom, there is nothing sadder than a child who cannot read social cues at the proper level.</p>
<p>Also, I have to say, from the non-accelerated side of the fence, it is extremely tiresome to have a child’s acceleration endlessly promoted by the parents, like a badge of honor–especially given the poor social intergration of these children. It was amazing to me how many bragging parents minimized the hurt caused by that poor social fit–or didn’t see it. </p>
<p>I knew about the hurt from my own mother. Her hurt and sense of social misfit, was caused by the selfish interests of her mother.</p>
<p>cheers,
Agreed that the social fit is a very important consideration in placement. There are various solutions to meeting academic “advanced” needs without going ahead a grade. To me, the individual case should be compelling in all developmental areas to justify early entrance. Same with deferring entrance. </p>
<p>I do agree with getting kids into some sort of educational environment in the early years. Our public school offers a preschool program a few mornings per week. This is for both at risk children (mandated) but is opened up to any family for a fee, so that the class is not made up of only at risk children. My kids did not attend as they went to a private preschool. But preschool options are important for many kids who don’t get the kind of educational enrichment at home and start K at a disadvantage. </p>
<p>Countingdown, my PM box fills up constantly and so contacting me by email is far better and what I prefer.</p>
<p>No offense, but I find this kind of generalization offensive
</p>
<p>I know I had to “endure” when my kids were in elementary school while other parents who held their children back behave as if I were a bad parent. I never treat it as a badge of honors and I don’t think any parent here treats his/her kid education that lightly.</p>
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<p>Sorry about your mother case, but I think most people general agree that it depends on the kid.</p>
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</p>
<p>As good a precis as I’ve ever read about the fundamental flaw of the “one system for all” public school approach in the US.</p>
<p>A family member pushed and pushed to have her child put in K early, because she was so incredibly bright. Every single year since then (she’s now in Jr High), she has been in trouble, not academically but behaviorally. She’s has managed to end up in the principal’s office every year at some point. The complaints inevitably go back to, she’s just too immature emotionally. She doesn’t cooperate in class, can’t understand the demands being placed on her, even though she can do the work. It’s too late to do anything now, but I think it’s really a disservice to the little girl all these years- what is it doing to her self-esteem?</p>
<p>Doubleplay:</p>
<p>Could it be that the problem is not that the girl lacks social maturity as she is not sufficiently challenged academically?</p>
<p>In group work, my S used to solve the problem of being way more advanced than other group members by doing all the work himself. Even then, in 6th grade, he started acting up in class out of boredom (and got suspension). In 7th grade, he was allowed to proceed at his own pace, and, mirabile dictu, discipline problems disappeared completely.</p>
<p>
My school only ever skipped two children, myself included. Neither of us as kids talked about the fact that we were skipped, and my parents certainly didn’t. The only time people ever found out I skipped was if someone asked specifically why I was younger than most students or if conversation turned to talking about specific elementary school experiences. Otherwise it was a non-issue. We both fit in well socially and physically, and we both excelled academically. Both of us had good groups of friends, were reasonably popular, played varsity sports, went to prom, and overall the issue that I didn’t drive myself to school until senior year wasn’t a problem at all. I’m now at the University of Chicago (and am not a stereotypical, nerdy UChicago student), and my friend is at Harvard. We’re both doing well socially and academically. </p>
<p>Social fit can be an issue for some children, but being a year younger than other students doesn’t necessarily result in being a social misfit or being developmentally behind classmates. Further, you seem to ignore the possible social stigmitation of being academically ahead of peers. I remember some specific instances in elementary school of parents of other children basically challenging me and openly comparing me academically to their own children (saying that we were equal or I was inferior, of course). My parents were cautious and wanted to keep me at grade level, but a high school student still came in to my second grade classroom once a week, which was what my parents agreed to, to teach me out of the seventh grade pre-algebra textbook. This was after I had to go around to the other classrooms with my teacher to search for higher level math or spelling workbooks or reading books for years; the year after this I graded other students’ quizzes after I finished my own and sat out on some lessons on material I had already learned to work on independent work. It was worse to be questioned by classmates and their parents about why I was doing these things as a seven and eight year old than waiting to drive or not being able to vote my first year in college.</p>
<p>Some students, for social and developmental reasons, should not go ahead; however, it is unfair and inaccurate to generalize your mother’s experience to all children. A good school and good parents will examine related social issues when deciding whether a student should skip. A student who is academically, socially, and developmentally ahead of peers should be able to skip without your judgment about their social fit.</p>
<p>As for the bragging, that’s not limited to parents of students who skip. Some parents brag. Some don’t. It has nothing to do with whether the child skipped or not–I’m sure the same parents would be bragging no matter what their children were doing.</p>
<p>Well Marite for example, if the class was doing an activity she wasn’t particularly interested in (for example, they were changing over to social studies from math), she would refuse to participate. Another example is when the kids started taking “quizzes”, if she didn’t feel like doing it she wouldn’t. She would come into the class and decide, “I want to do puzzles” and refuse to sit in her chair when the class started doing something else. She did not get along with the other children in the class. These are all examples from early elementary.</p>
<p>Later on, when they started standardized testing, she would suddenly in the middle of a test refuse to continue (probably because of frustration). Therefore, she’d end up with bad test results that didn’t reflect her true abilities. When they tried to have her tested for gifted, at the slightest challenge, she refused to cooperate. I think part of her problem was that she was immature and part of it was she felt pressured, but I’m not a counselor so…</p>
<p>I hate to think what will happen when she gets into high school and has to read Pride and Prejudice! 
LOL (goes back to another thread)</p>
<p>“I just read this article. It seems that the author had already decided that redshirting is beneficial.”</p>
<p>I think about 11 might be right. Of course, we are homeschoolers, and I have much less problem with kindergarten than I do with what follows. :eek:</p>
<p>doubleplay:</p>
<p>It does not seem to me to be a development issue. She is a stubborn child and continues to be; she was stubborn at 6, will be at 16 and 60. I don’t know that it can be ameliorated by keeping the child back one year.</p>
<p>In kindergarten and first grade, our nephew refused to come to the reading circle; instead, he wandered around in the classroom or picked books out of the bookshelf. The teacher considered his behavior uncooperative and disruptive The teacher thought he was immature–maybe even slow? His mom looked over what was being read at circle time and said he’s already read it on his own and preferred to read something he had not. Indeed, the teacher did not even take into account that the books he picked from the bookshelf were considerably more difficult than those she read at circle time. Incensed that her son was labelled slow, my SIL had him tested. He tested gifted. But he also turned out to have ADD and borderline Asperger’s. He has been admitted to some excellent colleges with good scholarships. He still has ADD and borderline Asperger’s which affect his ability to interact with others. Holding him back would not have cured him of either.</p>
<p>I have a December birthday, and the system had a December 1 cutoff. All the kids I played with in the neighborhood and my preschool were going to kindergarten and I would have been left alone. The preschool wouldn’t take me again because I finished their program. My mother convinced the school to take me, and agreed that if I couldn’t cut it they’d keep me back. I got along well with all of my old friends, and was the first to learn how to read. I graduated from high school at 17 1/2. My only problem was the one of driving.</p>
<p>My d has a September birthday. In day care, she was academically fine and finished the older kids’ curriculum. Her friends were from 6 to 13 months older than she; only one was younger. If she had remained in day care, she wouldn’t have had any friends, and would have been bored by the academics. (Please don’t flame me by using the term “academics” for a preschool - I just don’t have another word for it.) She started kindergarten at just shy of 5, graduated yesterday from high school in the top 10%, and is off to a great school in the fall. The two things she hated: driving later than her friends, and not being able to get a job in retail this summer because she’s not 18 yet.</p>
<p>Our school district is slowly pushing the entrance date earlier. I think it’s now October 1. The thing is, though, you’ll always have a year range in students in any class. What difference does it make if there’s a kid with a birthday on Jan. 2, 2000 and a kid with a birthday of Dec. 30, 2000 in the same class, or if the birthdays are October 2, 2000 and September 30, 2001? There’s still a year difference. It strikes me like cutting off a piece from one end of a blanket and sewing it onto the other to make the blanket longer.</p>
<p>marite,
Definitely stubborn!! But I love her to death. She is at the same time exasperating and tons of fun.</p>
<p>I know a few elderly people from farming families who started school a year early because when a sibling started, they just followed him or her to school every day till finally the teacher gave in and let them stay. </p>
<p>These days, someone would get arrested, expelled, or their face plastered all over CNN.</p>
<p>doubleplay…from the brief anecdotal description, it appears this young girl is stubborn and some of her personality traits would be the same no matter the grade and likely are not a developmental issue as much. </p>
<p>corranged…I continue to be impressed by many of your very articulate posts! I very much agree that people should not generalize that those kids who do an early entrance or skip are socially inferior than the older group in which they are placed. That is the kind of generalization that can be frustrating. Having a child who was placed ahead, it wasn’t only due to academic acceleration or readiness. The placement was developmentally appropriate to her socially and emotionally. The point is for a developmental placement, more than simply going by age. She had no problems socially with a MUCH older group because she not only had the early K entrance, but was in multi age classrooms with kids two grades higher than her still. In MS, she took some classes in the high school, even with seniors. She always fit in. So, for some kids, socially this works. For some, who are simply ahead academically speaking, early entrance may not be appropriate if it is problematic socially. </p>
<p>I also agree with Marite that some kids who act out, though we didn’t have this issue here, might do so if they are extremely bored and not challenged. </p>
<p>I feel lucky that our elem school tried to meet individual needs. When the class all went to spelling groups in the school, for example in fourth grade, my D no longer was enrolled in spelling as she had finished the elem school curriculum and so the teacher and principal arranged an independent study for her and she wrote a 90 page musical (she still writes musicals today in college and was doing so today in her room, as a matter of fact!). Taking spelling would have been a travesty for a gifted writer who could spell anything basically. The problem for many is when schools do not differentiate the curriculum. An improper placement can be even more of a problem in that scenario.</p>
<p>I haven’t read the entire thread, but in my family’s case, with two later summer/early fall boys, we held them both back.</p>
<p>I think the deciding factor that made us comfortable with the decision is that both DH and I were EXTREMELY late at puberty. We were pretty sure that neither of our sons would be shaving daily in the 8th grade.</p>
<p>Both entered HS at 5" 5", and are both now six feet. Neither of them are shaving regularly YET, at ages 17 and 20. I think we made the right call!</p>
<p>We did “hold back” our 2nd child, a boy with September birthday who would have barely made the cutoff. After preschool he spent a year in Montessori Pre-K, which was not the same as another year of preschool, but not yet kindergarten. Very hands-on, which was what he needed.</p>
<p>The main reason was he was still undecided about which hand to write with, and showed no interest in trying to write or color, though he was just learning to read, had a large vocabulary, and was obviously very bright and learning new facts like a sponge. We just didn’t think he would be happy in a K setting which these days tends to be pretty academic. At the time he was on input, and the teacher would have asked for at least SOME output! </p>
<p>Oh, and his speech was still unclear in some ways (brain moving faster than tongue could accomodate.) He had speech therapy at school through first grade.</p>
<p>For him it was the right decision, and in later years his development evened out and he ended up at the top of his class academically and socially.</p>
<p>We had other children with August (girl) and June (boy) birthdays and did not hold them back. They also ended up at the top of their classes!</p>