<p>My spouse suggests that Ph.D.s should not be called “Dr.” in any medical setting (where a possibility of confusion could arise); and correspondingly physicians should not be called “Dr.” outside of any medical setting–only semi-joking . . . it’s the European influence.</p>
<p>Obtaining a Ph.D. normally requires an original contribution to knowledge, while obtaining an M.D. does not. In my value system, this makes the Ph.D. the superior degree. (You could call yourself “Dr.” without feeling pompous, coureur, as far as I am concerned.) </p>
<p>The Ph.D. in nursing that was described in the New York Times article did not seem to require an original contribution to knowledge–but I believe that there are other nursing Ph.D.s that do. </p>
<p>Given that I’ve encountered first-year medical students who were encouraged to introduce themselves to patients as “Dr. X,” it seems rather unreasonable to object to the use of the title by a Ph.D in nursing–who would surely be more qualified to act in an emergency than a first-year medical student, and who would also have a quite precise understanding of the procedures that could and could not be performed by a nursing Ph.D.</p>
<p>And a note to emeraldkity4: Within the Max Planck Institutes, people may not pay much attention to the use of “Dr.” but they certainly do just outside the Institutes. The Washington Post on March 14, 2008, carried the story of a Ph.D. from Cornell who was interrogated by German police about “title abuse.” Within Germany, people who hold Ph.D.s or M.D.s from EU countries are permitted to use the title “Dr.” but those with Ph.D.s (or presumably, M.D.s) from the U.S. or other non-EU countries cannot. The Washington Post article reports that “Violators can face a year behind bars.” No physicists have been jailed as far as I know! But the article also says that at least 7 U.S. Ph.D.s have been subject to criminal investigations, in connection with their use of the title “Dr.,” including one from Caltech. It’s because the Ph.D. comes from a non-EU country (not an M.D./Ph.D. issue).</p>
<p>Not to reference “how it is done” in Europe, or how it is customarily done here in the U.S., or how it used to be in the 15th century, but just to say my preference.
When I meet someone, I call them by how they have addressed themselves, until such time if they later ask me to call them something else, or if I should hire them. For example, I may meet a Doctor Charles Winchester. I don’t say- Hiya, Chuck! unless he has asked me to call him Chuck. But if I should hire his services, or an attorneys’ then I am comfortable calling him/her by the first name. Then, the attorney works for me. I see it just like the nurses in my doctor’s office see it- they call him by his title because Dr. is the boss, but if I hire his/her services then I am the boss. (Although I don’t insist on being called Mr. X)</p>
<p>I believe there is a psychological impetus to the belief of many that physicians are inately superior and deserving of marks of special respect.</p>
<p>As examples:<br>
***We go into a private room and disrobe in front of the physician and let him/her do intimate probings of our naked body (or even worse, our wife’s or daughter’s naked body).</p>
<p>***We trust a physician to cut us up and save us from dire diseases and injuries.</p>
<p>In order to resolve the visceral discord of the above situations, it is helpful to believe that the physician has a powerful juju greater than mere mortals. We want to believe the physician is not only competent, but magical. Better than we could ever be.</p>
<p>Quant - There are differences in the many doctoral level of preparation in nursing. Many are DNS, "Doctor of Nursing Science.’ These doctoral programs are often but not exclusively clinical in nature - psych, family practice, anesthesiology. Many of these do require a research component in the curriculum. There are also a few with a DNS offered in administration or education. Some offer a PhD - Yale - that are very heavily dependent on research and the development of new knowledge.
Most of the nurses that are practicing today at an advanced level have Master’s degree preparation - the nurse in the well-child inner city clinic, the midwife with admitting privileges, the nurse in your primary practice who has prescribing privileges, the diabetes educator who knows those insulin pumps inside and out. What has happened is that as of 2015, these types of roles can only be preformed by doctorate level nurses. I believe the article mentions this.
I really don’t know how or why this extra credentialing came about. I have been arguing for thirty years that the minimal entry standards for entry level nurses should be a BSN. I have always felt that that is where state Nursing Boards should have been directing their efforts - not at the higher end of doctoral programs. IMHO.
And skyhook, you have a point about the ‘psychological impetus’ but trust me, MDs are not alone in their extremely intimate encounters with patients.</p>
<p>The issue does seem to be about two things: 1) the unfortunate use of a noun with a commonly accepted meaning as a title for a wide range of professions; and 2) ego, of course.</p>
<p>I like QM’s spouse’s suggestion, with all seriousness about physicians not using their titles in non-professional settings.</p>
<p>A favorite T-shirt of mine says “not that kind of doctor”. No muss, no fuss.</p>
<p>I have 2 MAs, no doctorate. I’m convinced that titles are sometimes about power. I know a school administrator (PhD) who signs his memos “Dr. First Name”. Why not sign off with “Jim” or “Dr. Jones” ? He’s earned the degree, I’m OK with calling him Dr. Jones, but
DR. JIM?? What does that practice say to you??</p>
<p>Well around here, much of primary care, (which includes most general peds, pap smears, and “physicals”) is done by NP’s and PA’s. Not “all” by any means, but “much”. Could be a local phenomenon, but I bet it’s coming soon to a neighborhood near you!</p>
<p>At my hospital, we have PhDs ad MDs working side by side and they all get called “Doctor”.</p>
<p>When I was in grad school I had a professor with a Phd who snarkily said that MDs shouldn’t be called ‘Doctor’ because they were really just body mechanics. :)</p>
<p>IMO, if someone earns the degree, they have the right to use the title.</p>
<p>Shrinkrap, I’m on the other side of the country and we have NPs and PAs doing the same. I love ours- a little more chat time and a slightly different perspective. A friend is prepping to become a PA and dealing with all the same, tough pre-med classes. </p>
<p>I am a Master’s prepared Nurse Practitioner. I am not a “doctor wannabe”. If I wanted to be a doctor, I would have gone to med school. I introduce myself as Dkitty, the nurse practitioner. If and when I get my Doctor of Nursing Practice, I will have the credentials after my name on my Rx pad, but will still be Dkitty the nurse practitioner. </p>
<p>I like my niche in the medical world. I can handle the minor medical issues and the day to day stuff, which frees up the doc to handle to complicated cases. Anything that I am not sure about gets kicked up the chain to the doc. I actually have a lot of patients who only want to see me, they don’t want to see the doc because I spend more time talking to them. I have to tell them that it’s important that their DOCTOR knows what’s going on with them too, as he is their DOCTOR, not me. :)</p>
<p>I am very conscious of the difference in our training. Doctors really do have more knowledge. NPs have great training and offer that nurse caring aspect. When you have a doc who is not afraid of the “competition” from NPs, you actually have a really good team and the patient benefits. And isn’t that the whole point?</p>
<p>True, but in my experience of having been hospitalized three times in my life, the quality of care you get in a hospital depends far more on the skill, knowledge, and dedication of the nurses rather than the doctors.</p>
<p>Glad to hear that Germany has changed that, xiggi. There was a time when Oxford and Cambridge officially recognized each other’s doctorates, but not those from the University of London. I imagine that has changed, but can’t say for sure.</p>
<p>The University of Chicago has the practice that the faculty refer to themselves as “Mr.” or “Ms.” I found it a little disconcerting to call one of the Deans there, and have the phone answered “Mr. X’s office.” Perhaps someone here knows how that tradition was established?</p>
<p>Oh, QM, there was the chance that the stern Germans decided to relax the policies by looking at their former allies in Italy. In that beautiful country, almost every one can be a Doctor. It even sounds neater when pronouced Dottore. All that is needed is a laurea degree, which now refers to a three-year degree. After the tremendous effort to add two additional years of study, the title dottore is upgraded to the more prestigious dottore magistrale.</p>
<p>So, when will those nurses and PhD decide to move to the elusive Master Doctor title? In the meantime, plenty of rappers seem to like the title Dr. as well! :)</p>
<p>PS If I sound sarcastic, it is because I am. I wish people would endorse Coureur’s viewpoints on this issue!</p>
(Just don’t tell the docs that…lol)</p>