I used to work with a lot of Indian programmers in India. None of them went into the field because they loved computer science. All this talk of finding your passion… nope. It was a job that paid well.
I agree with @happyalumnus in post 56 . It is interesting that currently 50 per cent of the medical students are women whereas in 1970 about 7.5 per cent of the doctors were women. So much of this is based upon cultural bias and stereotyping that drives students choices.
Three possibilities:
Boys and girls are genetically similar in mathematical ability, but low SES boys and high SES girls underperform, both feeling they are socially more successful and not caring enough about being successful academically.
Boys are genetically more capable in maths. High SES boys and girls perform at capacity, low SES boys underperform badly because they can’t see the point at all.
Girls are genetically more capable in maths. Low SES boys and girls perform at capacity, high SES girls underperform badly, because…?
So, scenario 3 admittedly sounds.unlikely because whilst it is to be assumed that there are Social incentives for high SES girls to underperform, there are plenty of other incentives to not underperform so badly.
Interestingly, I got to chatting with the math and science of an all girls catholic college prep school (we live in a fairly conservative catholic area in Europe and there are a number of single sex schools left. College prep school means the school would cater to the upper third of the age cohort academically, so middle to high SES girls, academically capable, probably a few gifted kids in every classroom.
We got onto the topic of pros and cons of single sex schools, specifically whether all girls schools really encourage girls to not underperform in math. The teacher said she was interested in the topic as well, so always compared how their girls did on standardised tests compared to kids in mixed schools. In the middle school years, those would be wide problem sets, not multiple choice, no stakes for the teachers, just a small part of the year‘s grade for the kids, for junior and senior year in high school state wide final papers in math and science (mandatory calcupus, statistics and vector geometry for all, which would probably be considered an advanced math track in the US).
Throughout middle schools, the girls in single sex schools do worse than kids in mixed schools. But by junior and senior years (she said) the girls have caught up and do as well as kids in mixed schools (so overall, probably somewhat better than girls but worse than boys in mixed schools, but she didn’t have have access to data that detailed.
There is something that is happening in the middle schoolers early high school years, during puberty. I’d really like to know whether that pne might be biology and it is all about keeping girls engaged so they don’t get left behind, without that chance to catch up.
Edited to add that this doesn’t mean that boys might not need systematic engagement in other subjects, but math was the topic.
Re: directions and gender
I’ve had a couple times regionally where Google Maps has told us to turn giving both a street name and “at the Chase bank” or “at the McDonalds.” I’ve been meaning to look into whether this is paid advertising or something they are testing. My memory is that it has happened on both my phone and DH’s phone, where presumably Google knows our genders.
@ynotgo – turn-by-turn instructions, like in Google Maps, should be in left/right form … and landmarks add to that (assuming the landmark database isn’t stale). You’re in immediate mode and really only need to know which way to turn next.
Magnitude and direction make more sense when you’re thinking about an entire journey.
PS. I would assume that the locations announced in GM are some form of advertising. I can easily see this spin out of control, where the directions include things like, "… you’ve been driving for a long time, why not stop at McDonalds on your right for a refreshing Coca-Cola drink, only $1.99. I’ll reroute you afterwards.
I was interested by females performing so much better everywhere in English. I looks at the AP Data from 2017. It looks like the mean scores for males and female on the two AP English tests are quite similar (males a smidge higher than females on AP Lang & Comp; girls a bit higher on AP Lit).
The big difference is that females take 63% of the tests.
Compared to the percent of female test takers, females are slightly over-represented in the scores of 5s in AP Lit and 2s in AP Comp. Slightly under-represented in the 5s (and 2s somewhat) in AP Comp and the 1s in AP Lit. Pretty much average in other scores levels.
I’ve been through the math decision with DD20 recently. Yes, we are in a more affluent, mainly white, suburban district.
DS16 is currently pursuing an Electrical Engineering UG degree. Liked math in HS but disliked the way AP Calc BC students were pushed so took AB instead junior year and AP stats senior year. Math placement test started him in Calc 2 in college and he has made Dean’s list 3 of 4 college semesters, so no lasting negative effects from no BC in HS.
DD has been on exactly the same accelerated math track as DS since 4th grade, with all the same teachers even, but 1. I am big on “”you are just as good at math as you want to be” so any “girls are not good at math” talk was squelched long ago. She earned the recommendation to take AP Calc AB next year but will be taking Non-AP, regular College Calc instead. Why? Two reasons: first, she is also good at everything else.
With 4th year of Latin, Honors Physics (no AP Physics 1 offered), APUSH, AP Lang, and AP Research, math was the logical place to give herself a little breathing room. She plans to pursue a STEM career but more likely biochemistry, than engineering so the other classes get her closer to where she wants to go.
I’ll admit it took me a while to agree to let the higher level math go. I think it was a bit about the whole way math is so clearly tracked—nobody had to take a test in elementary school to get on the track to take APUSH next year—but APUSH is known as the hardest AP class at her HS. AP physics and AP Calc BC are probably next in difficulty and include very few female students, while most students take APUSH. Which brings us to the 2nd reason she will take regular college Calc: the teaching style. The years of being “tracked” convinces many that they are either good at math or they are not AND EVEN THE TEACHERS BELIEVE IT.
Beginning in 8th grade they do not teach math but instead really make the kids struggle through teaching each other. Class time is group homework time and many additional hours are invested outside of class (Kahn Academy, tutors, group problem solving, etc) trying to figure it out. From my perspective this is the only discipline “taught” in this way. Very frustrating for the students. So, it becomes a choice of where to invest resources: time, energy, $s, blood, sweat, and yes, tears.
Simply put, I think my DS stuck with the higher math track one year longer because he was not as interested in upper level FL and only did 3 years. DD20 learned by watching him struggle through and has chosen a path more “valuable” to her. She won the Honors Bio and Honors Chemistry awards so I think she is on the right path, for her.
We need to stop being so obsessed with “girls are good at English and boys are good at math”. There are other subjects that matter also.
Wow - just amazed at the level of stereotyping … So the non-Indian folks who become CEO’s are just doing it out of passion, not money, right? Got it.
@mom2twogirls “All this to say teacher biases and different expectations can definitely be a factor from what I’ve seen anecdotally.”
In our experience this is definitely true. Also, unlike what some may expect, some of the girls most supportive STEM teachers have been men, and some of the underminers have been women who have no conscious idea that they are doing it.
No. Most programmers or IT support staff or QA folks do that the rest of their lives. Most don’t become CEO’s.
@Happytimes2001 “I strongly believe that what matters to children begins in the home. If you tell your children ( male or female) that math AND English matter then they will.”
I think this is a complex problem with many contributors, but I think you are right that this is the number one issue. The students who are excellent at math and English typically have parents who taught them that math and English are the foundational tools that are required to learn all other subjects. If a student does well at math and English, they will always have access to any subject.
That has been our approach with our DD and DS. They have both grown up hearing that math and English can take you anywhere you want to go…
High SES schools:
These students are almost all headed for college. Socially, there is a lot of emphasis on social skills and appearance for girls. Girls are more likely to be encouraged to be a part of the group. Parents and some educators are more likely to question whether a daughter really has the ability, to take the most advanced math course they are recommended for. Even if they do, some believe it is better for a girl to be a part of the group and not stand out like that. Many families believe that girls are better at English and boys are better at math. High SES girls do very well in school, but are often discouraged from being in the most advanced math and lag their male counterparts who are rarely discouraged. Tellingly, the handful of girls in the top math class, often Multi-variable Calc., are often grouped near the top of the class and are likely to have an average score that his higher than the boys.
Low SES schools:
These schools have a very different dynamic. More girls are headed to college. More boys will join the military, learn a trade, or be incarcerated. The “don’t go to college” options are largely male-dominated paths (except for jobs like hair stylist). The imbalance in college plans leads to better balance in the top math classes. The top math class is also usually less advanced. It is more likely to be pre-calc or AP Calc AB. There are also many anti-college sentiment families in this group who believe the articles that say college is a waste of money. These are usually supported with anecdotes and ranges. The articles confirm what they want to hear.
That may be true of he UES(upper east side) or Massachusetts but it is certainly not true of California or Oregon or Washington
@collegedad13 No, not NE in general. In MA women receive more math degrees than in OR or WA. Not all come from out of state. In fact, I think this is Family specific not school specific.
@Much2learn No, that is just not true. If you think that schools create a woman’s opinion of herself you are missing 99% of the point. Women are formed by what is said at home. We need to stop making women the victims of other people’s misdeeds and misconceptions. Women’s opinions and math skills ( and English and any other skills) begin at home.
IF you have girls, show them how to be great in math. Show them what matters. Do not focus on society putting them in a box. Make them strong and bright. Do not confine them to opinions about boys v. girls. You’d think people would have evolved. I guess many folks don’t work in careers like software or engineering or medicine where people are known by their skills and not their sex.
This makes me so mad because these folks keep repeating ideas that are so old fashioned and confining to women. Young ladies, you will never have to break out of a box you don’t see yourself in. This spoken by a parent with STEM kids ( yes some girls too), we sidestep the people who talk like this and tell them they are just plain out of step with current thinking. They’re shocked and we just keep going. Many parents ( of boys and girls) have asked how we did it. Simple. We just worked at it and made no excuses ( as above).
@happytimes2001 "@Much2learn No, that is just not true. If you think that schools create a woman’s opinion of herself you are missing 99% of the point. Women are formed by what is said at home. "
Which post of mine are you referring to? I am confused because I agree with you that home is the most important influence. I think schools, teachers, and peers are secondary influencers, but the home is primary.
@Happytimes2001 "IF you have girls, show them how to be great in math. Show them what matters. Do not focus on society putting them in a box. Make them strong and bright. Do not confine them to opinions about boys v. girls. "
I agree with this too. I have two daughters and we did this with both. They are both engineers. I think either I mistyped something or you misread it. I think we are very much in agreement.
@Happytimes2001 there are lots of studies that agree with that. However those skills often end in the classroom as a result of the behavior of other students and teachers. There are lots of studies that agree with this last point
Talk about making me so mad! The above is gratuitously insulting to non-STEM people. I admire people with math skills greatly, and I’m happy the poster’s daughters are engineers if they are happy being engineers. But “engineer” is not a magical profession as far as I am concerned. I know engineers for whom I have enormous respect, and engineers who are limited and rigid. The highest goal of education is not to turn everyone into a techie because that’s better than anything else.
Believe it or not, people can be quite successful, financially and otherwise, and contribute significantly to society, without being math-centric. My spouse has led huge organizations and managed 10-figure budgets (and more) with the math skills of a fifth or sixth grader, and not an advanced one. She has demonstrably changed the world in some meaningful respects. It’s not remotely true that her sex has mattered more than her skills. People in careers like software or engineering or medicine worked for her.
@jhs that was great advice
Is it just possible that the society we live in still largely hold the pervasive view that men/dads should be the (main) breadwinners of the households while women/moms the “less” important financial contributors? This type of society would result in more males to be in field that pays higher income while females less so?