I think that for many excellent students, what’s missing is authenticity. They’ve followed the advice because, well, that’s what they thought they should do. A top school wants to know that a student is enthusiastic about a challenge and can do they work. The first allows them to take advantage of the resources the school has and the second allows them to succeed.
And there is also some luck involved. Who knows @socaldad2002 , if your D had applied last year, perhaps she’d have had a doppelganger or two who also offered somthing else Duke was looking for and she would have ended up at some other fabulous school.
@gardenstategal : I think that you nailed it with respect to “authenticity” comment & observation.
I would like to repeat that it may well be different with respect to public universities versus private schools as to what is necessary in order to have a reasonable chance for admission (in some cases just to the honors college/program or just to certain majors or for merit scholarships while in other cases for admission to the university). The top ranked publics are UCLA, UC-Berkeley, Michigan, Virginia, & Georgia Tech.
Big LOL. You always have to watch for who’s saying what. Think about it: they don’t know any better than anyone else and are pulling it from who knows where.
But the keyword is still Match. I suspect OP’s D did a mighty fine job at that, based on what the college wants, not some random opinions online. Congrats.
Most kids do not have natl awards. Having one is no tip, for a top holistic. Nice, but not magic. Obviously, not required.
I think it would be more accurate to categorize the list from post one as things that help in highly selective admissions, as opposed to things that are required.
Can you get in without them? Sure, but when the top 10 schools in the country (depending on how you define that) collectively get something over 300,000 applications for under 20,000 seats, of which probably well under 40% are awarded on strict academic merit without other considerations (diversity, legacy, development, etc.) every little bit helps.
Someone asked, she was accepted to Duke as a Public Policy major.
While we will never know exactly why she was accepted, here’s my best guess:
acadamically she made it though first round: 4.0uw, 34 ACT, 9 AP classes;
her class doesn’t rank but she is probably 10-25 of 700?
leadership, student government incl student rep for school district
academic decathlon, showing her commitment to academic endeavors;
social change advocacy in D.C. the past several years through her temple (L’Taken)
I assume 3 very strong LORs from teacher who is Duke alum, one from her APGov / Aca Deca teacher, and one from rabbi who absolutely thinks D walks on water and confirmed her commitment to social advocacy and learning.
personal essay(s), Common app strong essay that was compelling and insightful and started out about how when she looks in the mirror and the person she sees is not the person she is and later ties the essay to wanting to work with and help others who have their own doubts, fears, concerns, etc. Don’t want to share too much more about her personal life but Duke’s optional diversity essay was perfect for expounding on this idea. Her “Why Duke” essay was also very good showing how she would fit in seemlessly with Duke’s work hard, play hard culture and used many specific examples of programs she wanted to take part in and how she would contribute/collaborate with faculty and her peers.
“packaging”. I know it’s controversial but we hired an excellent private college counselor who “packaged” her to showcase her talents and career goals, tying everything together. She also helped play up D’s Jewish identify. Duke is looking to add to their Jewish student body to better compete with the ivies and other top colleges. D attended a special temple event in LA hosted by Dean of Admissions, Mr Guttentag.
ED applicants went down 500 apps. Sometimes you need a little luck. Duke’s apps were down this year and the acceptance rate went slightly up to 20% (from 18% the year earlier).
To summarize, I think all of the above played a factor in her acceptance and while she didn’t do everything “right” she was strong in many areas that showed Duke she would be a great fit for their college.
@gardenstategal Totally agree with your comments regarding authenticity. If you cannot get a sense of the kid on chance me threads, it’s likely admissions can’t either.
Regarding the national awards, I would tend to still see them as important. We have seen many super strong but not 4.0 kids get into amazing schools based on the national awards. My kids have been members of a team that meets this “nat’l” criterion. Each year, kids apply and get in ED to some amazing places. Not, very many kids will meet this bar, but if they do, it can definitely help them stand out. This might be especially true if the national award is related to their educational interests.
Not to say, you cannot get in without national awards, but I think it definitely makes a kid stand out. And maybe it depends on where the kids are coming from. In some towns/schools, there are a lot of standout kids so the determining factors can be EC’s.
Top Schools have thousands of top stat kids so ANYTHING that is truly unique can be very important. The competition and uncertainty is a real factor. Yes, there will be many who have successful results. But there are an equal number who will not despite great stats. The WOW factor of any impressive accomplishment is likely to help a lot. Again, many national awards involve a level of long term commitment, perseverance and focus. If that can be shown elsewhere, great.
Her 5 AP exam scores were just “ok” 5, 5, 4, 4, 3. Again you don’t need all “5’s”
Her ACT writing was “only” a 9/12.
I also wanted to point out that D is going to be studying public policy and is not a STEM major, so things like national math, science awards or taking AP science classes might be helpful to say an Engineering or premed applicant? Again, there are no absolutes in holistic admissions.
@socaldad2002 , great advice. I am happy to hear she got into her first choice on her terms. She sounds like an interesting kid with a charmng profile ready to continue tikun olam.
We shouldn’t speculate what got her in. That’s probably based on the same sort of guesses that misinform, in the first place. Some kids will grab the idea that their record and app are viable, without knowing what came across for her.
First, for a TT holistic, is actually “conforming.” Having the full picture they look for, how the college sees itself and the community of students. The actual “showing” can vary per kid. But it includes traits and the level of thinking they want. Uniqueness can’t get you past what else may be missing or weak. Top stats, we all know, aren’t an over-riding “it” at that tier.
You don’t need all 5’s. But in the fiercest competition, one 4 or 1 B can set one aside. It depends on the subject and how it plays for the major.
All we can say is she did it right, or right enough, to appeal to them. A combo of factors and nothing that raised eyebrows.
@socaldad2002 Congrats on the acceptance. Very exciting for your daughter and family. Well done.
But didn’t you mention as an additional point that the top school in question that you applied to had been potentially looking to add great kids from a particular ur religious group and you focused on this facet of her background to a great level. Including a lor from a respected leader in your community?
It’s an important hook and part of the application to leave out of this as some with very similar academic and ec characteristics could be misled a bit.
I just think jumping on what CC got wrong is maybe a little bit of personal happiness. It also understates that there are many who may have been rejected with similar stats and qualities as your d and this thread does them a disservice. The are most likely a silent majority reading these threads.
Your situation may be simply a combination of a Star kid like yours applying to the right school, at the right time and with a well designed application package to focus on the qualities you display and they want.
That’s pretty much the basic CC recommendations all the time. Imho.
Know yourself. Know your target schools well. And make sure it comes together as best as possible.
CC is for generic advice and more universal world view. There’s always an outlier or two in any data set. I think your D was super strong in any case but it doesn’t reflect necessarily on the general and more observable data available. I also find most people say give it a chance but it’s more around reasonable expectations.
Once again congrats! I’ll be down there in a few weeks to see a game at the indoor myself.
Congrats @socaldad2002 . Duke is a wonderful school. What a blessing for your D to get the college admissions stress off her back. She should really enjoy her senior year, especially time with friends.
This has been a good thread. I think one of the “dangers” of CC (besides the occasional really bad advice) is that it can either create a false sense of hope or pile on to anxieties. In an area of great uncertainty, admissions to elite colleges, people tend to want to create certainty by formulating checklists and standards. In many cases, it creates a false sense of security or even entitlement among some applicants and/or their parents. An extra 20-40 SAT points is unlikely to be the factor that tips you over. Just go over to the Harvard SCEA thread and see how many kids with 1600’s or 36’s plus other perfect to near perfect scores were not accepted.
Conversely, how many kids get shot down on here if they are not perfect. Your chances are only 0 if you don’t apply. Now you have to be realistic, and all the good posters make it a point that certain schools are reaches for everyone and that you have to have a set of match and safety schools that the applicant needs to accept as a great outcome. Take their word for it, the top schools are looking at the whole kid, and how that kid fits into what they are trying to construct as an ideal class. So much of this is unknowable by anyone outside the AO’s. People outside the AO can’t read the essays or the LoR’s and can’t compare them against other applicants. There are kids with perfect/near perfect stats who are rejected by every top school. There are also kids with excellent, but not perfect stat’s, who are cross admitted to several single digit admissions schools and plenty of others who are admitted to one but not any others. This is just the inevitable outcome of a process involving many many qualified applicants seeking a very limited number of spots.
Appreciate your comments and feedback. Just my opinion but I don’t think religious affiliation is really a “hook”, maybe a small “tip” or one of 10 admission factors but we tried to understand what the college was looking for, tailor her application highlighting some of these match areas and cross fingers.
Secondly, the point of this thread was not to condemn CC but to highlight that for top colleges, holistic is really about the whole application and if you don’t have every box checked it’s ok, you still can be successful.
It certainly has opened my eyes and made me second quess some of my assumptions and advice I have given other students.
“Just go over to the Harvard SCEA thread and see how many kids with 1600’s or 36’s plus other perfect to near perfect scores were not accepted.”
Bunch of kids with those same stats over on the UIUC EA notifications thread who didn’t make it in there either. OP made an excellent match (congrats!), but it is still very competitive out there.
Agree with @Groundwork2022 that many top universities reject applicants with ACT scores of 35 & 36 or perfect SAT scores, and outstanding GPAs.
Northwestern University is a prime example of a top 10 university that does not chase numbers. Vanderbilt University is currently doing the opposite.
If you apply to sought after majors at many state schools–Univ. of Washington, Illinois, & Univ. of Texas-Austin–students with seemingly impeccable credentials get rejected each admissions cycle,
Let’s not forget that college admission game has different qualifying criteria for every applicant. What works for a legacy donor athlete or a inner city URM Quest Bridger, wouldn’t work for no hook merit applicants.
CC tribe tries to guide families as best as it can. It’s flawed yet a great resource.
No advice is 100% correct when it comes to people. Highly selective. College admissions not formulaic However, you can come up with generalities and for MOST students it gives them the Bedt chance of acceptance. That doesn’t mean it’s a route that has to be taken.
I see posts all of the time about whether certain subjects should be in the college essays are not. The fact of the matter is that nothing is truly off limits of dine exceedingly well and reviewed by an ad comwho lives the subject. But for the most part, one is taking a risk taking certain paths. My son actually got favorable comments and interest over an essay that his GC flushed, and I was in agreement about that. It broke the most essential rule i. That it was hardly about him at all. Basically a research paper. But it hit the right chords at an Ivy League admissions office. I still stand by the belief that such an essay is not going to help your admissions chances MOST of the time.
Conventional wisdom works most of the time, but not all. I remember a woman bragging how she was a heavy smoker even through pregnancy and had 5 healthy kids who all went highly selective colleges. Here she had 5 examples that went against health advisories. Does that mean it should be recommended to be a smoker and smoke while pregnant?
So any and everyone should understand that the very best advice gives a large population the best chances but not any one person. If you don’t have a special handle, ou should take 4 years of foreign language. Those most likely to get into the most selective schools do take the most challenging courses. Students who win major recognized awards have a greater chance of gaining admissions to the HPY et al schools. These things are true, but not for ALL cases.
I think it’s super that your D was accepted to Duke! Fabulous for her and your family!!!
I don’t know that’s necessarily the conventional wisdom either.
My D opted not to take any subject tests at all. Was just burnt out from testing and culled her college accordingly and didn’t apply to any schools that required them.
She also quit her sport between sophomore and junior year but replaced it with more relevant ECs for her.
Also didn’t go past Spanish III (and took it DE).
But, as a STEM major, she did take the highest level of math and science available to her, and had the highest course rigor.
No national awards but lots of regional and state stuff. Still was accepted to her top choice and into their honors college.
That said, I think long term posters here are more worried for the students who spend so much time on their reach schools that they don’t have match and safeties in case the reaches don’t pan out. Yes, it works out that many are accepted to their reaches, but many more do not and are not prepared for the rejection. IMO, being sure that there is a for sure safety is more important than having the reach school.