<p>You folks on the anti-disability bandwagon need to chill. You don’t know this kid.</p>
<p>I was terrible in math and did terribly in calculus in college. I took a remedial math class prior to entering grad school (it was a quant based program) and did great in math and fantastic in calculus. I never thought I had a math disability but I knew for sure that I suffered from having terrible math teachers K-12 (which often happens since the great teachers teach the strong students.) Some of my classmates clearly had a math disability- they needed to eke out a C or better to continue in their degree programs, and having a gifted math instructor was critical for them. These were students who understood the formula, could describe to you how to calculate the area of a circle, and then mix up the numbers or reverse the order when actually doing the calculation.</p>
<p>So I get that someone can be conceptually strong in math but also have some deficits in calculations. Unlike me- someone with a shaky foundation who had always been told that they were dumb in math.</p>
<p>The point here is not to diagnose the OP’s kid. In my humble opinion, kids who struggle in math can overcome their issues and do great things as finance majors, econ majors (not every discipline but some), psychology majors, urban planning, linguistics, political science, architecture and other fields which require facility with numbers and some degree of quant or statistical or spatial skill.</p>
<p>I don’t know many kids (in fact I don’t know any) who struggled in math in HS who ended up completing engineering majors. Some started… but switched out.</p>
<p>Engineering programs attract kids who live, eat and breathe math. So even with tutoring and even with support and even with a fifth year (which BTW, will end up costing the OP far more than some of the other options mentioned here… if money is tight, this is a kid who needs to be on the “8 semesters and out with a degree” plan, even if that means some loans) I don’t see engineering in the cards. NOT because the kid isn’t smart enough, but because the instruction and the grading and the problem-sets and the team projects are geared to the “I love math and can’t get enough of it” crowd. So to me- encouraging this kid to apply as an engineering major has two flaws- A- this kid ain’t an engineer, and B- when his application gets compared to the other engineering students, the reader doesn’t see the “mathiness”. Just a kid with a great SAT score which is not the same thing.</p>
<p>I think a U with lots of majors and tons of fun things to do on weekends is the solution. Easier to find the non-drinking crowd when there are lots of activities. And hundreds of things to study- some that require good math skills (but not stellar math skills) and some that do not.</p>
<p>Doing poorly in calculus is not a disability. Doing poorly in calculus when other indicators would indicate the student would do well is a possible sign of a disability, which would be manifested also in many other ways.</p>
<p>The OPs S2 has shown he is accomplished in many ways. It appears he has a great work ethic and IMHO looks like he is striving for success in something he enjoys. I would not be so quick to say some type of engineering is not in the cards. This is not something he is choosing blindly. If he wants to pursue game design or industrial design or something like that, then he just may be able to do it even if it requires a degree in engineering. I think it’s too early to say he can’t do it. As he goes through his college career, he may find another path he likes as much or more and it may even be a better fit for his abilities. Who knows? I would not try to dissuade him from pursuing his dream though. He obviously is aware of his limitations and look what he has accomplished so far. </p>
<p>blossom what you describe as a math disability is general dyslexia, but if this was the case, it would apply to all math, not just calculus. OP doesn’t seem to have a big problem until Calculus as evidenced by his high Math SAT.</p>
<p>Fang What indicators would point to being proficient in Calculus other than being able to do calculus? Being able to do Algebra would not be a good indicator of being able to Calculus. I have seen many students who were good in Algebra who could not do Calculus because the concepts were just too difficult for them to understand.</p>
<p>Grude I agree that OP is accomplished in many ways. But not being able to do Calculus doesn’t equate to having a disability, it seems to equate to having a lack of aptitude for Calculus. It also doesn’t mean that OP cannot overcome his lack of aptitude but it will require a great deal more effort and work than those with the aptitude to do Calc like his brother. </p>
<p>Everyone is different and excels in different areas, most people tend to do things that they are good at doing, but that doesn’t mean that OP shouldn’t try to achieve his goals. If engineering is what he wants to do, then he should try to reach that goal, but he also needs to realize his limitations. Fang’s child took Calculus three times and failed, I hope that OP doesn’t take that route, because if your on scholarship, such grades are not your friend. It may result in him losing his scholarship which would be a great travesty.</p>
<p>momneeds2no Your suggestion that OP work on math tables, I think is a good one. I have seen smart kids who could do well in lower level math without a good command of the math tables but when given higher level math, have a difficult time because they just didn’t know the math tables for quick computations. Given that OP has not learned the math tables and has just begun to do long division, you may be onto something about why he is having as much trouble with Calculus given his overall abilities. But then again, it may be that he is just not wired to do well in Calculus. Since I have not worked with OP, I could not tell you which, but having him learn the math tables would be a good start to finding out if that is part of his problem.</p>
<p>Kid’s not in calculus yet. Iirc he has strong math reasoning skills, but issues with calculations and retention. More important, mom seems satisfied she understands the abilities and the limitations, having had some testing done, etc. </p>
<p>Honestly, I’m not sure whether we do need to further define disabilities here- or lack of them. Some good suggestions have been made about finding him breadth, where he can find the match for his strengths and interests and not be hindered by any weaknesses. Sure, he may grow out of (or around) some of this. But he needs the right place and support, while he grows. </p>
<p>Spatial problems. Lack of spatial intuition: e.g., inability to see whether something will fit in something, poor visual recall, faulty spatial perception. Difficulty in memorizing terminology and formulas. </p>
<p>A student with spatial problems is probably going to have more trouble with continuous math than discrete math. </p>
<p>That doesn’t make a whole lot of sense because why would a kid who is inherently bad at spacial skills and “visual recall” crave a career in design . . . game, industrial or otherwise. That doesn’t compute at all. If you have any aptitude at all for design you have to be able to visualize, recall and manipulate spacial relationships. Either that is not his issue or he REALLY needs to look in a different direction.</p>
<p>This might not be the case either, but generally unless you are a natural math person calculus is the first level of math that requires more learning of completely new concepts. Algebra and geometry are pretty intuitive and, in our household experience anyway, one is not starting from scratch and can work their way along using reasoning (much like SAT math). Learning calculus for your average person takes a measure of focus to pay attention and learn in class and to complete problem sets. Our pretty strong but not “math wiz” older kid chugged her way along through the work just fine. DH (recent ADHA diagnosis) having been a grade ahead and a talented math kid through algebra struggled to a B in pre-calc sophomore year then ended up switching out of calc a week into junior year. I still don’t think it was conceptually too hard or a case of topping out - he just couldn’t get his brain to focus long enough to do that plodding through solutions and working out the concepts from whole cloth. Unlike other subject and even algebra or SAT math there is no BSing your way through calc. or just kind of pulling things out of the air like is possible on a blue book exam or APUSH essay. If you want to think of it as a disability at all it would be a focus disability not a math disability. </p>
<p>Fang What you state is that the OP lacks aptitude for Calculus vs. having a disability. As saintfan has pointed out, if OP has spatial problems, then engineering will probably not be his cup of tea. Not sure how one can teach spatial recognition and visualization. Not all people are cut out for all things. Everyone has their limitations. There is a reason why nearly half of all freshman that start out as a STEM major change to another major during their undergraduate career.</p>
<p>Note that OP said nothing about spatial. And for heaven’s sake, OP is the mom. Her son is currently in pre-calc. And she already mentioned her concerns about engineering.</p>
<p>I was (carelessly, I now see) answering what kinds of other deficiencies some students who were weak at calculus might have. The OP didn’t say her son had weak spatial abilities; I think she said the opposite.</p>
<p>The more general point is that if a kid who has a spotty demonstrated math career applied only to engineering departments that could be the reason that he didn’t hear back fast. Engineering is not a safety option even at a school that otherwise should be a safety. Furthermore . . . if maintaining a target GPA is essential to keeping an academic scholarship they would want to go in eyes wide open in terms of his ability to succeed in higher math at a collegiate pace and possibly against a less favorable curve. </p>
<p>Which is not to say that he won’t get in to engineering or shouldn’t try to pursue it, just that if the goal is a nearly free education (out of pocket) with very minimal debt, a true admit and financial safety option would be prudent. It would not be unheard of for the parent to just dictate one target application to that end. If you have several school in hand that calculate and package aid differently it will serve as a good comparison when making final cost/benefit decisions.</p>
<p>Somewhere up thread the op mentioned testing which pointed to “discalclia”. Hence, the choice of a modified homeschool program which provided heavy accommodations. </p>
<p>The cold truth is that Cal States ( sons safeties) play only by the numbers. And the CSU system (CPSLO is the exception) picks the numbers aka eligibility index. Zip code & GPA (9th to 11th grade “a - g” classes) & SAT/ACT. Race (white!) is not a factor. </p>
<p>While the op sons focus on test prep paid off with high SATs, his homeschool curriculum does not compare to high achieving kids coming from California public schools which stress APs, nor does it compare to private prep schools which stress a broad foundation across disciplines. </p>
<p>Here’s where the facts end And my opinion begins. High school kids benefit from high school classes. So what your kid struggels through a hard class an earns a C. Hopefully he/she better understands his/her deficits and try out some tatics to overcome those deficits. Typically transcripts for LD kids are sprinkled with Cs across subjects. Compensating for a LD doesn’t stop once a kid is admitted to college. It’s a lifelong challenge. </p>
<p>Those stats are better than “non-super star” in my opinion. I insisted that my son and daughter consider schools that gave good merit aid as their safety schools. University of Alabama is number one on that list. Full tuition to any student who makes a 32 or higher on ACT and has a 3.5 gpa. My son also has received a $10,000 engineering scholarship on top of that. Unfortunately their deadline for that aid has passed for this year. Other schools to consider: Furman, Birmingham Southern, Rhodes College. They all give very good merit aid and they all have good campus culture that is not drug or party heavy. They also have more females than males so that’s another plus to getting in. Good luck.</p>
<p>Why do you keep insisting that this poor kid has had a crappy education and that his test scores only reflect cramming for the SAT and that his GPA is inflated b/c he is homeschooled? He is far more than a child struggling with math. He has evidence of a solid educational background:
</p>
<p>It also isn’t as if he took “slacker’s math 100.” He took AoPS alg 1 and 2. Those are about the most difficult math courses available. He should be commended for taking them. My only concern for the student is that it took intense tutoring to get through them and what that indicates in terms of majoring in engineering. But, goodness, using a tutor to overcome deficits and earning a B is exactly what you are stating he should have done!</p>
<p>Let me clarify. Most colleges look beyond the SAT scores. Some even maintain their own formula for calculating GPA (based upon a typical HS college prep program). Some colleges even compare rigor of students curriculum to what is avaible through thier high school of attendance. From what was stated by the op, this kids curriculum is not typical HS college prep. Therefore, the colleges may not accept the ops stated GPA. Cal states won’t. Neither will many top tier privates. IMO the op is better off looking at colleges that will understand sons unique predation, offer support for his LD and give aid.<br>
Again my opinion: pre-calc and lang2 second semester of senior year does not jibe with the stated SATs. With those scores, one would expect a more rigorous and well rounded curriculum. </p>
<p>You have a falsely inflated view of the math on standardized tests. I have had middle school students only having taken alg 1 and only part of geo make a 29 on the math section (which is supposedly about a 650.)</p>
<p>He has grades for 26 college credits. He is taking 4 APs this yr plus pre-cal. What is not college prep about that scenario.</p>
<p>@sbjdorlo - Outside scholarships are money that is not calculated into the Profile and FAFSA so most schools consider those as need met dollar for dollar and they reduce grant aid. There are schools that cap loans (Davidson and Grinnell come to mind but I’m sure there are others). In our experience Grinnell loans were lower than a similar package but the out of pocket expectation was higher. Again, in addition to the Cal publics that your son has applied to I would advocate for identifying privates where he might be in line for merit aid and that offer substantial need based aid. You won’t know exactly how things will be packaged until you get the final offer (and even that can be negotiable) so why not try?</p>