@monydad put a little more effort here and take the time to define the columns, does “very high” mean they smoke a lot if weed there?
I just cut & pasted from the link, everything is defined there, I’m sure.
You go expend the effort, if you are concerned.
I’m too lazy.
Re# 39 “To be fair, the NSF data is for science and engineering PhDs.”
This is explained in #41, “I’m too lazy.”.
In that case, to even think about or read what I was cutting & pasting. Though it goes far beyond that…
Re #39,“I doubt that the data are available, but it would be nice to see information for liberal arts PhDs, medical students, law students, and MBA students.”
I’ve seen it for all PhDs, including liberal arts PhDs. Apparently one can get all data from the “Webcaspar” databases. OR NSF , someplace.
But I won’t try to do that, see last sentence, post #41.
It is infrequently listed without “per capita” (though the fact that is is per capita is often conveniently omitted), because the parties listing it are liberal arts colleges that are using the data as marketing tools. For that purpose they only want to show the per capita numbers, because that is what makes them look good.
The last listing of total PhDs I can find at this time that was posted on CC is from 2008. There are probably more recent ones.
"Here’s the top 100 in raw numbers of graduates getting PhDs from 1994-2003.
First number is PhDs awarded.
Second number is total graduates over the offset 10-year period.*
4470 56,363 University of California-Berkeley
3134 53,612 University of Michigan at Ann Arbor
3033 33,736 Cornell University, All Campuses
2931 61,136 University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
2667 58,176 University of Wisconsin-Madison
2613 73,365 University of Texas at Austin
2545 17,855 Harvard University
2519 79,507 Pennsylvania State U, Main Campus
2454 54,970 University of California-Los Angeles
2078 11,348 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
2049 57,165 Brigham Young University, Main Campus
1970 52,518 University of Minnesota - Twin Cities
1917 67,393 Michigan State University
1894 16,662 Stanford University
1877 12,941 Yale University
1876 69,239 Ohio State University, Main Campus
1863 57,978 University of Florida
1829 38,488 University of California-Davis
1770 68,093 Texas A&M University Main Campus
1688 25,853 University of Pennsylvania
1654 53,192 Purdue University, Main Campus
1624 30,559 University of California-San Diego
1607 51,837 Rutgers the State Univ of NJ New Brunswick
1592 51,689 University of Maryland at College Park
1585 11,101 Princeton University
1580 61,290 University of Washington - Seattle
1575 51,040 Indiana University at Bloomington
1567 29,049 University of Virginia, Main Campus
1554 14,669 Brown University
1510 41,410 University of Colorado at Boulder
1453 35,755 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
1386 39,199 Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State Univ
1356 45,998 University of Arizona
1313 15,531 Duke University
1273 19,770 Northwestern Univ
1265 39,705 University of Massachusetts at Amherst
1263 8,270 University of Chicago
1251 39,182 University of California-Santa Barbara
1209 21,761 University of California-Santa Cruz
1169 31,600 SUNY at Buffalo
1164 38,894 Iowa State University
1144 34,586 Boston University
1138 35,343 University of Iowa
1110 51,180 Florida State University
1107 7,067 Oberlin College
1101 13,622 Columbia University in the City of New York
1086 34,660 University of Missouri, Columbia
1077 29,534 University of California-Irvine
1034 22,853 University of PR Rio Piedras Campus
1011 45,641 University of Georgia
1005 12,784 College of William and Mary
985 62,660 Arizona State University Main
983 11,830 University of Rochester
983 19,161 University of Notre Dame
978 28,839 University of Nebraska at Lincoln
952 33,232 University of Kansas, Main Campus
951 33,250 University of Tennessee at Knoxville
929 36,418 North Carolina State University at Raleigh
921 30,609 University of Delaware
904 34,763 Miami University, All Campuses
897 13,887 Washington University
881 31,176 University of Pittsburgh Main Campus
847 32,432 Colorado State University
844 31,094 Louisiana State Univ & Agric & Mechanical Col
842 6,432 Rice University
842 30,099 New York University
834 32,735 University of Utah
817 10,684 Dartmouth College
814 50,140 San Diego State University
805 9,260 Johns Hopkins University
794 50,222 University of South Florida
793 22,484 SUNY at Binghamton
786 37,770 Auburn University, Main Campus
780 7,081 Wesleyan University
775 25,288 SUNY at Albany
770 3,657 Swarthmore College
766 4,561 Carleton College
764 30,443 University of Connecticut
757 18,825 Georgia Institute of Technology, Main Campus
756 21,633 Baylor University
752 46,872 Southern Illinois University-Carbondale
751 21,999 SUNY at Stony Brook, All Campuses
738 2,059 California Institute of Technology
736 9,428 Carnegie Mellon University
718 23,986 University of Oklahoma, Norman Campus
712 9,834 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
702 12,422 Tufts University
699 15,251 Georgetown University
692 26,724 Oklahoma State University, All Campuses
692 32,825 University of Southern California
690 28,573 University of Kentucky
687 29,602 University of Cincinnati, All Campuses
683 28,782 University of Oregon
680 30,192 University of South Carolina at Columbia
678 33,142 Texas Tech University
674 24,097 University of New Mexico, All Campuses
667 34,167 Ohio University, All Campuses
664 33,342 Temple University
647 32,560 University of Houston
644 5,082 Williams College
"
- Offset is 5 years earlier, “from IPEDS database”.
“Research-very high” is the Carnegie classification for each university. It was formerly called “Research 1” or “R1”. It is the highest research rating in the classification system, so ti should be no surprise that each of these universities is coming out near the top of minting PhDs, which are research degrees.
Not sure where the animus toward LACs comes from; most people are interested in results that are adjusted per capita even between research universities. Nevertheless, it is interesting to see that smaller schools like Wesleyan, Swarthmore, Carleton and Williams have a certain raw impact of their own.
The American Association of Medical College has data on undergraduate institutions for medical school applicants (not the same as accepted students): https://www.aamc.org/download/321458/data/factstablea2-7.pdf
I can’t sort the data, but it looks like the top five schools are all public universities:
UCLA - 926 applicants
Florida - 839
Michigan - 776
Texas - 773
UC Berkeley - 741
The top five private colleges are (unless I missed one):
BYU - 430
Cornell - 424
Johns Hopkins - 401
Emory - 380
Washington University - 376
I concur fully regarding the general desirability of per capita numbers, @circuitrider. As just one non-LAC example, Caltech appears way down in the list in post #42, right below Stony Brook, masking the fact that the ratio of PhDs to graduates is an impressive ten times as large for Caltech as for that other school!
NSF does actually release those numbers as well. There are full tables here: [NSF Baccalaureate Origins of S&E Doctoral Students](nsf.gov - NCSES Baccalaureate Origins of U.S.-trained S&E Doctorate Recipients - US National Science Foundation (NSF)) They rank schools by institutional-yield ratio, which is the number of PhD recipients for that school per every 100 students the school graduated 9 years earlier. So for example, for every 100 Caltech grads that graduated with their bachelor’s between 1993 and 2002, about 35 have completed a PhD in a science & engineering field (which, for the NSF, includes the social and behavioral sciences, science and math education, and health sciences fields).
Scroll about 1/3 of the way down the page. Unsurprisingly, small LACs do much better here - Caltech tops the list, followed by Harvey Mudd, MIT, Reed, Swarthmore, Carleton, Grinnell, Rice, University of Chicago and Princeton to round out the top 10.
@Beaudreau Makes sense as those are among the largest universities by enrollment (both public and private).
@juillet thanks for that. Among the top in the yield-ratio list, it’s interesting to me how different otherwise similar institutions (in terms of selectivity, anyway), are.
Carleton, Caltech, Mudd, MIT, Reed, Swat, Grinnell, Rice near the top of the list, Vassar, Bowdoin, Dartmouth, Columbia, Wellesley, Berkeley near the bottom. Oberlin, Amherst, Duke in the middle.
Some significantly less selective schools throughout (Whitman, Earlham, Kalamazoo).
Is it school culture, a preference for med/law/biz schools, access to good careers with just the BA that put the selective schools down near the bottom?
Only 4 public schools in the top 50 ranked per capita PHD production (Berkeley, William and Mary, NM School of Mining and Technology, CO School of Mines) according to NSF data, which is a bit disappointing. LACs look to be pretty well represented.
I think I saw a non-STEM list somewhere.
And they are all private. Correlation? I think yes.
(yeah, I know, W&M likes to fancy itself as a liberal arts college, but its official class is University.)
You’re saying private U/LAC students are more likely to get PhDs than public U/LAC students? I wonder why?
^^Actually, what I’m suggesting is that middle class students are more likely to get PhD’s…and such students just happen to be over represented at LACs – which are generally private – and other private Unis.
My guess is yes. I think there’s a selection effect - where students who are more predisposed to want a PhD later are more likely to choose schools like Carleton, Mudd, Reed, Grinnell, Whitman, etc. In addition, some colleges simply have a more pre-professional culture, or they’re in a location or have connections that would encourage professional careers or schools (like med, law, business) instead of doctoral degrees. Columbia is one example I am more familiar with; the culture there is definitely more geared towards work right after college (like consulting, investment banking, or finance) or professional schools (like med or law school, or work + MBA) than doctoral degree programs.
This is not a bad thing; not everyone needs a PhD. Nor, however, does it mean that a student who chooses Columbia and wants a PhD is less likely to get into a program than if they went to, say, Swarthmore or Grinnell. It’s true that they may get swayed by the culture - aka, they intended to be a professor as a freshman, but due to the influence of their peers and the connections and resources available at Columbia they decided to go into investment banking instead. It’s also true that Columbia is a research powerhouse with tons and tons of opportunities for a student interested in doctoral degree programs, so a student with a strong pre-existing interest can easily find the kinds of opportunities they need to get into a top doctoral program.
That’s why I personally would encourage using these lists with a whole shaker of salt…I don’t think they are good ways to choose an undergrad college, not alone, anyway - or even with any kind of priority. A student who really, really wants a PhD but also really wants to go to Dartmouth or Berkeley would still be really well served, as that’s one of the top research universities in the world.