<p>The reality is that public schools come in many flavors. It is impossible to compare a public high school in a dilapidated urban area to the version that pleases so many suburban parents who were fortunate enough to move their families to one of those blissful oases where the tax dollars can be transformed in schools that look every bit like the old country clubs. The same can be said about the Catholic schools that have battled the exodus of their wealthier supporters and have tried to offer the same education to a “darker” population, and often with dwindling resources when compared to the few ones that decided to migrate as well and follow the tithing and the paying customers. </p>
<p>Because of all the differences, it is impossible to offer much advice, as the devil will be in the details. Pun intended, in this case. </p>
<p>However, I quoted the above post because I believe that it represents what public educators and supporters love to repeat to inquiring parents. I also beleive that the educators would not understand why the message has a very different impact on the people who see the many faults of a monopolistic system of public education. To be clear, the system of a “honor” school (a la IB or similar) within a school is a pure disgrace if there was ever one. </p>
<p>Yes, it is (mostly) true that “Public schools are charged with educating everyone that walks through its doors” but look at the next sentences. Paraphrased, the message to parents is … Oh, don’t worry. We will promptly separate the good apples from the rest. We will make sure that the 25% that interest us will receive plenty of AP and advanced classes. From the remaining 75%, we won’t do much to stop about 50% to drop out. You know, fewer students means fewer headaches. Yep, public schools are “technically” charged with educating everyone that walks through its doors, but it won’t be our fault that many who walked through our doors will walk out without a diploma or marketable skills. After all, it’s not our fault that the parents stopped educating their own kids after elementary school. But again, do not worry, look how well we will take care of the 25% who happen to have parental support. I am certain you’d love to join one of our PTAs. We always need good parents. Did I mention how many AP and Honor classes we offer here …</p>
<p>D’s are in Catholic elementary schools, kind of by accident. We were just going to do it for the full day kindergarten - older D was already reading and writing in preschool. She’s very sensitive and thrived there, so we stayed. </p>
<p>Oldest, S, has been in public all the way. The half day kindergarten was a waste. The elementary/middle school teachers were mostly mediocre. The middle school was a nightmare - like ‘The Lord of the Flies’ - the inmates were running the asylum. High School has worked out better after freshman year. S had a few good teachers, the tracking has put him more with his own kind - the goofy nerdy types. He’s thrived and has a large group of friends from a large cross section of kids.</p>
<p>So we’re trying to figure out what to do with D’s once they get to high school. The tuition is much higher, we’d like to save that money toward college. After all these years in a sheltered environment, I don’t know how they’d fare. Oldest D wants no more of the uniforms and heavy work load, but I have serious reservations about taking her out of the system. I envision her going to a women’s college (not my preference, just how she is).</p>
<p>Youngest D will rule the world some day.</p>
<p>Edit: we’re not Catholics, also D’s school is much more multicultural than the local public. They teach religion, the joke is that the Hindus and Muslims do much better in the religion classes than the Catholics.</p>
<p>LOL, Xiggi. I’m still remembering S-1 who’d burst into the back door of the house (couldn’t make it to the front) after his long, tracked day at Hardscrabble Public High. He’d make a bee-line for the bathroom and soon come out looking normal. I asked him, “Why don’t you use the bathrooms at school?” He said, “That’d be crazy. It’s only safe when Mrs. [HonorsEnglishTeacher] has hall duty near the bathroom closest to Band. Otherwise it’s a no-go day.” He talked about “wearing blinders” in the hallways, just hurrying to the next tracked class. Once inside the room, his breathing resumed. I hated having to send him and D to that awful school, in the same district I taught elementary grades. </p>
<p>When S-2 was able to go to an upscale suburban excellent public h.s. with a big tax base community, the difference was night and day. What a terrific school! Both were public schools. I’m interested in how you describe Catholic schools as having similar wide swings in quality as well, based on parish wealth. Interesting post, thank you.</p>
<p>Nightp - I really appreciate your feedback, as a student. What you said is exactly what I imagined was happenning at our local public, so I did ask a few neighborhood kids who were in the type of honors classes that my DD would be in. They have always said exactly what you said.</p>
<p>I am not trying to insulate my daughter from anyone, but I would like for the people that are in her core classes to be of a like mind - meaning kids who work hard and plan on attending a 4-year college. In middle school, since they started tracking for math, I found that her core group of best friends are in this class with her (as well as science) and they are all similar in their drive. Heck, one girl has them pray before they take the tests! I like that type of motivation.</p>
<p>I don’t really want to let her do the Catholic school’s shadow day, if the public won’t allow it as well. I know her - she’ll think “Wow, this school is wonderful! so much freedom, cafeteria is great, etc.”, not realizing that the public school is like that as well.</p>
<p>I agree there are good and bad public schools. That said, I am a big proponent of independent school education (not necessarily catholic schools but independent schools) - (full disclosure - I work at one) The reasons being (and these are often stated by our parents and students) are:</p>
<ol>
<li>smaller class sizes</li>
<li>safer environment</li>
<li>being in an environment where it is cool to be smart</li>
<li>more athletic, arts and extracurricular opportunities (ie no-cut athletic teams)</li>
<li>academic rigor (all the classes are harder)</li>
<li>not being beholden to NCLB - and thus not teaching to the test like many public schools around us do</li>
</ol>
<p>So I would definitely look in more detail at all of these aspects with both schools you are considering. Good luck</p>
<p>“The public did have an orientation night, but when I called and spoke with a secretary, I was told that they don’t do shadow days. I’m about to call back to speak with someone else.”</p>
<p>You need to get to one of the guidance counselors, or assistant principals. They want a nice, smart, hardworking kid like yours at their school, so they should be able to work something out.</p>
<p>It sounds like your daughter has a good set of friends now. If she goes to the public HS with them, you will not have to meet as many new parents, and you won’t have to figure out which of them are nut-cases and which are sane. Several years ago we considered buying a house, which would have entailed moving to a different (affordable) neighborhood. One big factor in our decision to keep renting, was knowing the parents of Happykid’s pals.</p>
Again, not a one-size-fits-all. In some places, this is undoubtedly true. E.g., probably a good bet in St. Louis county. Otoh, there’s a range of quality on both sides near us: good & mediocre Catholic, good & mediocre…or worse…public.</p>
<p>To the OP: one thing to consider is which school has a cluster of peers that your D is most likely to click with in the academic sense. Only about 20-25 percent of D’s school were the Honors/AP/high-level theater and orchestra students but that was sufficient. It’s harder when there aren’t many to stimulate and/or push you.</p>
<p>DS2 wanted to play football in HS. It was not an option at his private so after all due diligence we sent him to the local Catholic High School. Within a month we knew it was a mistake. We are Catholics that lean to the quite conservative side, so it really wasn’t a problem with any Catholic aspect. It just was not a good fit for DS2, our family and our goals and values. Even after extensive research and interviewing we did not truly understand the culture until we were a part of it. So this year he is back at the private and quite happy even without football. My point is that very few decisions in life are permanent, and if it doesn’t work out adjustments can be made. I wish the OP good luck!</p>
<p>Thanks again everyone. After getting a bit of the run around (and eventually calling the administrative offices of the school district), I was finally able to have someone agree to allow my daughter (and I) to come into the public school for a visit while classes are in session. Not an official shadow day, like the Catholic school, but I’ll take it. They kept talking about the liability involved with having a student shadow, but I kept going up the chain of command. It’s unfortunate that private schools around here have a lot more freedom in the ways that they run their schools I don’t necessarily hold it against the public school for this bureaucratic stuff, just wish it was different.</p>
<p>I went to a Catholic school and I went to a public school. By far, the public school was better. Maybe not necessarily in academic quality (they were about on par with one another) but the exposure to the diversity at the public school, the wide range of ECs, the much broader curriculum, etc were MUCH better than at the Catholic school. Yeah, you have to “watch” who you hang out with, but if your child is in honors/AP classes then they will usually fall in with the right group :). </p>
<p>I have also seen that more of my friends from the Catholic school “went wild’” in college because they had very little academic and social freedom in high school and then don’t quite know what to do with it in college. I have also noticed that my public school friends have taken advantage of the ECs at college more than the Catholic school kids because they were so involved in a multitude of ECs in high school and are simply continuing that.</p>
<p>Go public and save your money for college if your child can get the honors/AP courses there. Many of the public HS’s in our blue collar area do better than the Catholic one at the various local academic competitions. If the public school is large enough there will be enough good students for your child to be with her academic peer group. She will also have much more freedom to disagree with majority opinions. Her social/emotional growth may be better- will the private school allow disagreement with its fundamental messages?</p>
<p>Do talk with the public HS guidance counselor (not a secretary only) about the courses your D could take over the 4 years and any other concerns. You are a taxpayer and this is already your school. No matter where your child attends school it is up to her to perform to the best of her ability. Public schools have more accountability and you have more rights. Also consider hidden costs- fundraisers, for example.</p>
<p>Diverse backgrounds provide their own education. Religion does matter. There are conservative and liberal Catholic dioceses- if you live in a liberal town the Catholics will be more liberal than in a conservative area, which will influence classroom discussions. A liberal college Catholic center kept me going to church in college, I couldn’t tolerate it at a conservative college- they did things that weren’t allowed in the liberal one according to the conservative one. This will also be true at the HS level.</p>
You got that right. The Radical Catholic Feminists of Smith do such things as pray the Rosary and read Julian of Norwich. My D was president of the parallel Newman club, equally subversive: pro-women priests, pro-married priests, gay-tolerant, pro-choice. Guaranteeing that women will be giving the hierarchy a headache for another generation.</p>
<p>I would go where you think your D is going to get the best education. Look at graduation rates, SAT scores, and where the kids go to school. My S goes to a large Catholic school for HS, he attended independent privates for grades 1-8. His current school was my last choice for him. His is currently a jr and I am drinking the Koolaide. I love, love, love this school. Great academics, terrific teachers and a superb admin. While H and I are Catholics, we are not practicing and S was not baptized. It has never been an issue. Yes, S must attend mass about once every other month and must take religion (ie-ethics, etc) he is not having Catholism preached to him every day. He does have teachers who live the kind of life I want S to live though. Really good ethical people. Some of them start class with a prayer, some of them advocate for those less well off. But bottom line is they walk the walk. In general, at least at my S’s school, they are really good people and good teachers. </p>
<p>Again, look at the kinds of kids who go to both schools. If there are good opportunities at the local public, and your D will take advantage of them, go there. If you feel she is better served by the local Catholic, send her there.</p>
<p>When Happykid was in 8th grade, I had her whole HS experience mapped out. I kept handing her all kinds of info. about this special program, or that course, or these ECs. She picked a COMPLETELY unexpected foreign language, talked her way into freshman honors level English and Studio Art, chose Forensic Science over Chemistry, and only took the cooking class I’d envisioned as a freshman course this year as a senior (and only then because her BFF is taking it now too). She is absolutely flourishing despite my desire to meddle in her academic life.</p>
<p>Listen to your kid. She has her own ideas about her schooling. Some of them will be way better than yours.</p>
<p>Happymom, I hear you In my case, it’s hard to listen to a 13 year old makes choices that will impact her education for years, based on the fact that she likes the school colors ;)</p>
<p>Her interests, we’ve supported wholeheartedly (theater? You got it! Animals? Here ya go! Japanese - umm, OK?!) But I do realize how important the high school experience can be to a student contemplating college. </p>
<p>Both visits are set up (although we’re still debating on the refusal of the public school to allow us to enter the classroom while in session). So, we’ll see how it goes!</p>
<p>sydsim,
Do you know any students at the public school, say a current freshman who was at DDs school last year? If the school does not have a formal shadow program, often for privacy concerns of the shadowed student, they may allow a guest of a student to attend with that student for a day.</p>
<p>You’re doing the right thing, and probably the ONLY one that will help you and your D make the right decision. Do not get too absorbed by the refusal to visit the school. After all, they have been shocked that someone …asked for one as opposed to simply walk in. </p>
<p>Before your visit, try to contact the guidance counselor and let them know you’d interested to (briefly) talk about the experience of juniors at the school, and perhaps get some details about the graduation rates and college destination of the the Class of 2009. </p>
<p>A last recommendation would include to make sure to attend events where seniors participate (athletics, art, etc) and ask the parents. It is amazing how much one learns from parents who no longer feel they have to tell the party line when warming the bleachers! And if there are few or parents in sight, take that into account.</p>
<p>I had a dilemma when my daughter was in 8th grade at a very small K-12 public alternative school, she wanted to attend a much larger inner city comprehensive public school with two of her good friends. ( her sister had attended private K-12)</p>
<p>Her middle school teachers told me she would be lost and wouldn’t do well at the large school.</p>
<p>I consulted with her older sisters friends ( they were eight years older), who knew her and remembered what it was like to have input into your high school choice, they advised I let her decide.</p>
<p>I allowed her to make the decision, and while it wasn’t always smooth, she learned to trust her judgement and she had a very good experience.</p>
<p>Thanks again everybody! I am feeling the love! For the record, I have probably done too much research already (can you say helicopter). </p>
<p>My development is small and we all know each other, so I have spoken to many of the parents and students (present and graduates) of the local public. Also visited several of the school’s Facebook pages and messaged recent graduates about their experiences (chose those that are attending different varieties of colleges). I’ve spoken to the Gc several times, as well as the principal. </p>
<p>All of the information that I received is the reason why we are confidant that the school can possibly meet our daughter’s education and extra-curricular needs.</p>
I don’t necessarily hold it against the public school for this bureaucratic stuff, just wish it was different.</p>
In my case, it’s hard to listen to a 13 year old makes choices that will impact her education for years, based on the fact that she likes the school colors ;)</p>