Which College Majors Lead Graduates to Their Parents’ Basements

This is just so wrong on so many levels, it’s hard even to know where to begin. In the first place, it’s just incredibly insulting to an awful lot of brilliant, hard-working, and highly accomplished people out there who have soared to the top of non-STEM academic disciplines and through a combination of talent, hard work, and “getup and go” have achieved enormous professional success. The idea that “getup and go” is confined to STEM fields reflects, IMO, an extremely narrow, shallow, and distorted understanding of what makes the world tick.

I can see how from the perspective a STEM major it might appear that way, however. Many STEM majors have extremely limited exposure to the humanities and social sciences, and the exposure they do have tends to distort their impressions of those fields. More or less universal among STEM majors is the need to satisfactorily complete some “gen ed” requirements—i.e., they need to earn some social science and humanities credits. Almost to a person they do this by taking the easiest, baby-level introductory courses, which they are steered toward either by their academic advisers or by student lore recommending the “gut” courses that will most easily satisfy their gen ed requirements. They generally find these courses not very challenging, and so they erroneously leap to the conclusion that the entire field is “easy.” But this is the equivalent of social science or humanities majors satisfying their natural science requirements by taking the classic “physics for poets” or “rocks for jocks” course, and concluding that STEM majors must be “easy.” In either case, it’s just not a representative sample. Granted, there’s not perfect equivalency; “weed-out” intro-level courses are much more common in math and science, simply because more students aspire to be medical doctors or engineers than most schools can accommodate. Most social science and humanities disciplines, in contrast, are looking to entice students into the major at the introductory level, rather than to turn away a certain percentage. So it may be true that (apart from the baby science courses specifically designed for non-STEM majors, offered as a courtesy by science departments) intro-level math and science courses tend to be more difficult, and are graded on a more unforgiving scale, than intro-level humanities and social science courses. But to leap from there to the conclusion that at more advanced levels the non-STEM majors must also be “easy” is an unjustifiable inductive inference. Anyone familiar with the rudiments of the scientific method ought to be able to recognize that.

The second distorting exposure to non-STEM majors that many STEM majors have is the one described by zinhead. A certain fraction of their peers, would-be engineers and medical doctors, end up bailing out of engineering or pre-med studies and migrating to non-STEM majors, and the movement in that direction is generally much stronger than movement in the opposite direction, from non-STEM to STEM majors. But there are many reasons for this; it’s not all lack of “getup and go.” Some of the bail-outs find that despite ample desire and effort, they just don’t have as much aptitude for math and science as they expected going in. That doesn’t mean they lack “getup and go” or academic talent; it just means there was a mismatch between their particular talents and the field they initially chose, often pushed into that initial choice by parents or other influential adults who wanted to steer them toward a “practical” major. Second, some of the STEM bailouts simply find the work in their STEM courses less interesting, less satisfying, and less intellectually engaging than they expected, and less of all those things than the work they find themselves doing in non-STEM courses. Again, this doesn’t reflect lack of “getup and go” or academic talent; it just means that when a richer array of options is on the table, the initially chosen STEM field becomes less attractive. The students in this group may actually be doing very well in their STEM studies, but they find the actual work to be . . . well, just more boring and pedestrian than they expected. Third, it’s no doubt true that some people bail out of STEM majors because they lack the.“getup and go” to successfully complete the major. But to assume this means that non-STEM majors are therefore overpopulated with people lacking “getup and go” is another huge inductive fallacy. In fact, at most schools, most students aren’t and never have been STEM majors, and most non-STEM majors start out as non-STEM majors. The relatively small fraction who bail out of STEM majors because they just don’t want to work hard are also extremely unlikely to rise to the top of their non-STEM field as well, because they’ll be competing against people who have a genuine talent for and interest in the field, and the “getup and go” to rise to the highest levels in it. .

This is a total mis-characterization of my point. I never said that “getup and go” is confined to STEM fields, just that STEM major tend to have more “get up and go” than non-STEM majors. The data supports that. The following link is to the freshman profile for the University of Illinois broken down by school. You can clearly see that the College of Engineering has by far the most qualified student body in terms of test scores and class rank. Additionally, the colleges with some science component tend to have higher entrance standards than the purely non-STEM schools. This trend is replicated throughout most state flagship schools

I have no doubt that there are plenty of smart, talented, hard-working, self-starters in non-STEM fields. My assertion is that there are more of them in the STEM area than the non-STEM area.

https://admissions.illinois.edu/Apply/Freshman/profile

College of Agricultural, Consumer, & Environmental Sciences
ACT Score: 25-30
SAT Score (no writing): 1230-1390
TOEFL: 96-106
High School Class Rank: 79-95%

College of Applied Health Sciences
ACT Score: 25-30
SAT Score (no writing): 1200-1350
TOEFL: 98-108
High School Class Rank: 80-95%

College of Business
ACT Score: 28-32
SAT Score (no writing): 1320-1440
TOEFL: 102-109
High School Class Rank: 88-97%

College of Education
ACT Score: 25-29
SAT Score (no writing): 1200-1350
TOEFL: 100-110
High School Class Rank: 77-93%

College of Engineering
ACT Score: 31-34
SAT Score (no writing): 1400-1520
TOEFL: 105-112
High School Class Rank: 92-99%

College of Fine + Applied Arts
ACT Score: 25-30
SAT Score (no writing): 1200-1390
TOEFL: 94-106
High School Class Rank: 72-94%

College of Liberal Arts & Sciences
ACT Score: 27-32
SAT Score (no writing): 1320-1450
TOEFL: 102-109
High School Class Rank: 85-97%

College of Media
ACT Score: 26-30
SAT Score (no writing): 1230-1400
TOEFL: 102-108
High School Class Rank: 80-92%

Division of General Studies
ACT Score: 25-30
SAT Score (no writing): 1300-1420
TOEFL: 98-106
High School Class Rank: 79-94%

School of Social Work
ACT Score: 24-27
SAT Score (no writing): 1150-1350
TOEFL: 105-107
High School Class Rank: 74-90%

While I agree with most of what you write, @bclintonk, I think you need to be careful about over-generalizing about STEM students:

“Almost to a person”? Do you have any actual evidence of that?

Of course there are lots of little worker-bee STEM students at many universities, majoring in engineering or pursuing a premed track because their parents have given them no other options or because they think this is what the “smartest” students do, but there are plenty of very thoughtful STEM students out there, who meet their gen ed requirements taking challenging classes, even in engineering.

One of the main reasons you don’t see non-STEM majors switch into engineering is because it’s virtually impossible to complete an engineering curriculum in four years if you don’t start meeting the requirements for the major your first semester freshman year unless you’ve entered with a slew of AP credits. Most shrewd students approach that conundrum by starting out in engineering to hedge their bets because it’s “easier to switch out than switch in.”

You do realize that “gen ed” requirements also include math and science? From my point of view, the non-stem folks take the easiest, baby-level versions of those.

@zinhead, I don’t see anything in your post (#61) that has anything to do with “get up and go.”

If you want to make the argument that STEM majors have higher GPA’s and standardized test scores in high school, have at it. But the notion that STEM majors have more “get up and go” than non stem major is baseless (and ridiculous.)

@emilybee - I would argue that class rank is a very good proxy for “get up and go” At UofI, students of the School of Engineering have a class rank of 92-99% which is the highest of any of the schools. It takes alot of self-motivation to push yourself and be at the top of your class.

It is interesting that @emilybee and @bclintonk haven’t posted any data that support their positions, but spouted baseless opinions.

@Zinhead - The problem with using the Illinois scores (similar to many State flagships) as an example is that the school has a stronger engineering program than liberal arts program. Compare those scores with the entering class of Williams where you’ll find very high scoring students majoring in traditional liberal arts subjects. Many strong liberal arts students are drawn to small LACs that don’t offer engineering.

I have 2 kids who are polar opposites in terms of their academic strengths. One breezed through difficult STEM courses, but struggled with writing assignments and reading intensive courses (he’s not a fast reader). The other writes exceptionally well and has an uncanny ability to connect ideas, interpret literature, and quickly digest complex reading material. Neither is smarter than the other. They just have different strengths. And IMO, the world needs both.

I get so tired of the “engineering students are smarter than everyone and have it so much tougher” mentality and the “you’re doomed if you’re not a STEM major” articles.

@Overtheedge - I am sure that there are plenty of smart non-STEM majors at Williams and other LACs. However, I stand by assertion that STEM majors are harder working and have more “get up and go.” If you want to refute that, post some verifiable admissions statistics like that for UofI that show non-STEM majors having higher class ranks and test scores than STEM majors.

It is interesting that @emilybee and @bclintonk haven’t posted any data that support their positions, but spouted baseless opinions.

I haven’t posted any data because I don’t believe there is anything which can measure “get up and go.” Get up and go has nothing to do with grades, test scores or what one majors in.

Maybe “get up and go” can be measured by the number of CEOs and powerful politicians/judges/public figures generated by various majors?

I suspect that could go either way but non-STEM majors would be well represented.

Very true. That was my kid’s planned approach to Pharm but she would up going Chem (pre-med) instead. And frankly, pre-med is a bet-hedger too - she’s not sure it’s what she wants but it’s a lot harder to try to catch up on that later than it is to switch out. STEM courses have such specific sequences and pre-reqs, humanities majors certainly have some but they don’t seem nearly as structured and sequenced. A soc major who has taken intro and stats is probably able to get into most any of the next level soc courses, but a Chem major needs a certain level of math, maybe a Bio, a pre-req chem, etc to go to step b, then that plus maybe physics for step c, etc. Trying to jump in after freshman year is basically impossible.

@Zinhead,

I wouldn’t take the University of Illinois as representative. It’s one of the most “lopsided” public flagships, extremely strong in engineering and physical sciences, generally more pedestrian in humanities and social sciences. For that reason, it’s a no-brainer for the brightest students in the state who want to study engineering to head to Champaign-Urbana if they’re admitted to the engineering school, because it’s easily one of the top 10 engineering programs in the country. But for many bright Illinois residents interested in humanities and/or social sciences, Michigan or Wisconsin often look like more attractive options, even at high OOS tuition rates, and there are large numbers of Illinois residents attending both schools. And of course, many of the brightest humanities/social sciences types will look to top private colleges and universities, including several close at hand—Northwestern and the University of Chicago, obviously, but WUSTL and Notre Dame are also barely more than a stone’s throw away,and Illinois sends a much larger contingent to top Northeastern private research universities and LACs than any other Midwestern state. And of course, when it comes to attracting OOS and international students, it’s the University of Illinois’ strengths in engineering and the physical sciences that draw the most interest, which only further strengthens the engineering school’s selectivity and admissions stats.

So which are the “purely” non-STEM schools? You can’t include the College of Liberal Arts & Sciences in that category because it’s got math & sciences; indeed it’s one of only 3 colleges at Illinois with the word “sciences” in its name. But surely you’re not suggesting that CLAS admission stats are as high as they are only because of the STEM students. Also notice that the other two colleges with the “sciences” moniker, the College of Agricultural, Consumer, and Environmental Sciences and the College of Applied Health Sciences, have fairly pedestrian admissions standards for Illinois. Surely those schools have “some science component.” So I don’t think your blanket statement is true even for the University of Illinois. But absolutely, engineering is very strong there.

I think my get up and go got up and went.

@bclintonk - If you find fault with the University of Illinois data set, I am sure you can find another publicly verifiable data set from a major research university that shows that STEM majors have worse or at least equal admission statistics as non-STEM majors.

This is reflective of applicant demand relative to departmental capacity. UIUC’s engineering division has stronger students because it is more popular relative to capacity than other divisions, so it can be more selective.

Not a research university, but here is a school which publishes its admission thresholds by major:
http://info.sjsu.edu/web-dbgen/narr/static/admission/frosh-f2015impact.html

Note: the numbers are an eligibility index of GPA * 800 + SATCR + SATM. Bold indicates a STEM major; italic indicates what are often (but not always) considered to be STEM majors.

The most selective (i.e. most popular relative to capacity) majors for fall 2015 frosh were:

4300 computer science
4200 business administration - accounting
4000 animation - illustration
4000 computer engineering
3950 undeclared - pre-nursing
3750 public relations
3700 biological sciences - molecular biology
3700 business administration - general
3700 forensic science - chemistry
3700 nutritional science - packaging

The least selective majors were:

2900 African American studies
2900 applied math - statistics
2900 art - various concentrations other than animation
2900 aviation
2900 Chinese
2900 creative arts, and prep for teaching
2900 dance BA and BFA
2900 English, various
2900 French
2900 geography
2900 geology
2900 humanities, various area studies
2900 industrial tech, computer tech or manufacturing systems
2900 Japanese
2900 jazz studies
2900 linguistics
2900 materials engineering
2900 meteorology
2900 music, various
2900 philosophy
2900 physics, prep for teaching or BA
2900 Spanish, and prep for teaching
2900 theater arts, and prep for teaching

There is no clear delineation of STEM versus non-STEM majors’ selectivity and therefore strength of frosh students at this university.

And funny, UCB, that philosophy is so low on the list when we have another thread going on about how successful philosophy majors are.

Maybe… just maybe… SAT scores don’t dictate the rest of one’s life.

GASP :wink: :stuck_out_tongue:

(note, UCB, my snark is not in any way directed at you.)

Zin, you clearly have a bone to pick with universities, and that’s fine, but I don’t understand (and never will) the need for some to bash non-STEM. It’s just so tiresome.

One contrary case to the stereotypical bandied about here that engineering majors at a given school always had higher GPA/SAT stats is the case of Columbia College vs Columbia SEAS during the '90s and earlier.

During that period, it was well-known that Columbia College required higher HS GPA and overall SAT scores than Columbia SEAS provided the applicant to the latter had near perfect math SAT scores*. Something which wasn’t an issue at my or many other STEM-centered public magnet HSs.

This knowledge was used by many students who were academically lopsided in the STEM area to exploit the lower admissions requirements for Columbia SEAS as an effective backdoor to transfer into and graduate from the more prestigious and initially harder to get into Columbia College…the main Arts & Sciences college within Columbia U.

Something which was possible back then as before the early '00s, all that was required to transfer between divisions once one was admitted to Columbia SEAS was to have one year in good academic standing** and submitting pro-forma paperwork indicating a desire to transfer divisions.

Many HS classmates during my HS years and earlier exploited this loophole as a way to backdoor their way into Columbia College and graduate with its perceived more prestigious degree. This was likely one key factor in why Columbia U changed their divisional transfer policies sometime after the early '00s so one now has to file a full transfer application as if one’s transferring from another university.

  • 'College advising section of the 90s and 80's era Stuyvesant High School Student Handbooks.

** Also not too big of an issue for most HS classmates, especially considering one can get away with loading up on Gen Eds during the first year before going through the pro-forma divisional transfer process which existed back then.

First of all, I am not bashing non-STEM majors, just pointing out that in general STEM majors tend to do better than non-STEM majors in terms of academic requirements and in terms of post graduation success (not living in the basement). More “get up and go” if you want to use that term.

For instance, in the list that usbalumnus posted and using his or her definition of a STEM major, of the top 10 fields at SJSU, 60 percent were STEM related. Of the 23 fields that had lower academic requirements, only 26 percent were STEM related. That is pretty good evidence that at SJSU, STEM fields are more rigorous than non-STEM fields.

Only someone overly sensitive would find that statement to be bashing non-STEM majors or students. Frankly, I don’t understand why you, @bclintonk and others get so upset over this. It’s just data that parents and students can use to help make more informed academic and career decisions.

I have said this before- but all the emphasis these days on how a STEM major is the “only” path to a successful life (or represents the “best” students) always makes me laugh - ESPECIALLY when people bring out the reams of scores etc as proof. When I was going to school in the 80s people said the same things about business majors and the value of an MBA. New flash - There is no guaranteed path to success- standardized tests are intrinsically flawed, and no major represents “the most” intelligent kids. It’s just silly. Why does it matter? The college process is stressful enough without all of the added competitive parenting.

Admission thresholds at SJSU are purely based on popularity versus capacity. They are not based on rigor of the subjects involved. How many would claim that philosophy and physics are less rigorous than accounting and public relations?